Пълен протокол на разискванията

Четвъртък, 10 юли 2008 г. - Страсбург

11.1. Твърдяно наличие на масови гробове в частта от Кашмир под индийска администрация

  Le Président. – L'ordre du jour appelle le débat sur six propositions de résolution concernant la présence présumée de fosses communes dans la partie du Cachemire administrée par l'Inde⁽¹⁾.

  Marios Matsakis, author. − Mr President, I am very glad about the very wise decision you have taken.

Commissioner, thousands of civilians have been the victims of extrajudicial killings and forced disappearances, torture, rape and other serious human rights abuses which have occurred in Jammu and Kashmir since the beginning of the armed conflict there in 1989. Shamefully, most of these crimes have not been fully resolved to date. Furthermore, there is real concern about the safety of human rights activists, including those who are seeking to investigate the fate of the many missing persons.

This Parliament strongly condemns all acts involving human rights abuses in the region and calls upon all governments concerned to show a strong will to uphold the rule of law and justice and to redouble their efforts in order to secure full investigations into the politically motivated crimes committed in Jammu and Kashmir in the past.

  Ryszard Czarnecki, autor. − Panie Przewodniczący! Niestety nie jest dobrze, gdy przewodniczący ze starej Unii dyskryminuje posłów z nowej Unii, udzielając dwukrotnie głosu posłowi ze starej Unii, panu Posseltowi, podczas gdy ja, współautor trzech sprawozdań, nie mogę zabrać głosu w tej sprawie ani razu. Uważam to za dyskryminację i rzecz absolutnie niedopuszczalną. Wystosuję odpowiednie pismo w tej sprawie, Panie Przewodniczący. Jest to rzecz bardzo niepokojąca.

Odnośnie tej sytuacji, to nie jest biało-czarny film. Na granicy Indii i Pakistanu dochodzi do konfliktów nieraz prowokowanych przez państwo Pakistan, o czym doskonale wiemy. Wiemy o tzw. linii kontroli strzeżonej przez siły zbrojne obu państw. Po ostatnim dwudziestoletnim okresie pokoju wzdłuż tej granicy to Pakistan wznowił swoje ataki przeciwko stanowi Kaszmir. A więc proszę zwrócić także uwagę na drugą stronę. Oczywiście nie podważam tutaj kwestii grobów, o której mówimy, choć liczba ofiar jest tam prawdopodobnie znacznie mniejsza.

  Jean Lambert, author. − Mr President, I welcome the opportunity to debate this particular issue because it is of great concern to many of us in this House whenever, in any part of the world, a significant number of graves come to light that are only accessible with permission of the security forces.

Therefore this motion for a resolution – along with the hearing in the Subcommittee on Human Rights next week – takes on an even greater significance because of the political and security situation in the area. As this House well knows, we have ourselves debated that general situation before, perhaps also under less than transparent conditions.

There is indeed a history of disappearances in the region. We know that a number of these have been linked to the activities of the security forces. We know that it is the most heavily militarised area in the world. We know that this also is an area where there are arrests and significant detention without trial. Therefore that also colours our interpretation of such findings, making it all the more important that there should be a really open investigation allowing full transparency and full access for the international community.

I hope that the European Union will, as the resolution states, offer its support for high-quality forensic expertise and any other assistance which is needed in this investigation, because it is important for our interpretation of what is happening there that we reach the fullest possible understanding. With that also goes – as others have said – the protection of human rights activists who are themselves trying to investigate the issue, such as Pervez Imroz.

I think we would all agree that it is the duty of all democratically elected governments to investigate such findings fully in complete transparency, and to try and trace those whose bodies are there and their relatives, so that we can fully understand the situation and not apply various interpretations to it which might not be the truth.

I think Parliament is absolutely right to be discussing this issue, and absolutely right to be calling on the Commission to offer its assistance, particularly given the ongoing problems that we are seeing in the region at present.

  Esko Seppänen, laatija. − Arvoisa puhemies, pidän tulkintaanne työjärjestyksestä poliittisesti oikeana, mutta juridisesti vääränä ja haluan ehdottomasti, että se tutkitaan puhemiehistössä ja parlamentin oikeudellisessa yksikössä, koska kyseisen artiklan soveltaminen ei voi jäädä teidän tämänpäiväisen tulkintanne varaan, vaan se täytyy selvittää tarkemmin.

Mitä tulee itse asiaan, Intiaa on kutsuttu maailman suurimmaksi demokraattiseksi valtioksi. Se on suuri väkiluvultaan, mutta se, onko se demokraattinen, riippuu myös maan ihmisoikeuksien tilasta. Väitetyt hallituksen turvallisuusjoukkojen toimet ihmisoikeusaktivisteja vastaan Jammun ja Kašmirin alueilla todistavat, että Intiassa ei kunnioiteta kaikkia oikeusvaltion periaatteita. Näin huolimatta siitä, että maan hallitus on selkeästi ilmoittanut, että se ei salli loukkauksia.

Me pidämme Intian hallituksen toimintaa epäuskottavana ja kysymme, mihin katoaa tuhatmäärin ihmisiä, ja keitä ovat joukkohaudoista löydetyt vainajat. Tuomitsemme ihmisten pakotetut katoamiset, kidutukset, raiskaukset ja muut ihmisoikeuksien loukkaukset. Erityisen vakavaa on, että epäilemme Intian hallituksen olevan osallisena tässä kaikessa. Niinpä me vaadimme Euroopan parlamentissa, että joukkohautojen alkuperästä, uhrien murhaajista ja murhattujen henkilöllisyydestä suoritetaan Intian hallituksesta riippumaton tutkinta.

Asia ei ole yhdentekevä Kašmirin alueen erityisluonteen vuoksi. On vaarana, että naapurivaltio Pakistan tulee mahdollisen uuden konfliktin osapuoleksi, ja silloin kyseiset tapahtumat saattavat toimia kipinänä kansallisiin sytykkeisiin kyseisellä tulenaralla alueella. Ryhmämme tukee yhteistä päätöslauselmaa Jammun ja Kašmirin tapahtumien perinpohjaisesta tutkimisesta.

  Bernd Posselt, Verfasser. − Herr Präsident! Der Konflikt in Kaschmir hat uns hier schon oft beschäftigt, und ich muss sagen, dass es ja eine Zeit der Hoffnung, der Annäherung zwischen Pakistan und Indien gegeben hat. Es gab die Hoffnung, dass sich hier Entspannung abzeichnet. Nun ist hier leider Gottes durch die innenpolitische Krise in beiden Ländern wieder eine Verhärtung eingetreten, und wir als Europäisches Parlament sind sehr intensiv bemüht, diese Verhärtung aufzubrechen.

Ich bin dem Kollegen Gahler sehr dankbar, dass er sich als Chef unserer Wahlbeobachtungsmission in Pakistan so intensiv um die Demokratisierung Pakistans bemüht, dass die Kontakte mit Indien demselben Ziel dienen, dass wir Vertrauensbildung unterstützen.

Da kann man natürlich fragen, warum wir uns dann mit Massengräbern befassen, die die Toten auch nicht wieder lebendig machen und womöglich das Klima zwischen beiden Staaten belasten. Wir tun dies, weil man einen echten Frieden nur schaffen kann, wenn man die Opfer in ihr Recht setzt. Und Opfer gibt es weder mit pakistanischem noch mit indischem Pass allein. Es gibt Opfer auf beiden Seiten, und Opfer ist vor allem das kaschmirische Volk selbst. Deshalb müssen wir diese Massengräber untersuchen, deshalb müssen wir feststellen, wo die vielen verschwundenen Menschen sind, um die ihre Familien trauern. Nur so kann das Vertrauen hergestellt werden, das für eine echte Friedenslösung nötig ist, die auch die Menschen mitnimmt.

Kaschmir gehört in erster Linie den Kaschmiris selbst. Deshalb sollten wir eine solche Lösung unterstützen, die den Kaschmiri endlich die Luft zum Atmen gibt, endlich politische Freiheit gibt, eine vernünftige Kompromisslösung gibt, denn das ist einer der ältesten Konflikte, die wir überhaupt haben. Er tobt seit dem Zweiten Weltkrieg, und es ist eine Schande, dass es noch nicht gelungen ist, dieses Problem in den Griff zu bekommen.

Deshalb unterstützen wir alle Bemühungen, diese Untersuchungen durchzuführen und den Opfern zu ihrer Würde und zu ihrem Recht zu verhelfen.

  Neena Gill, on behalf of the PSE Group. – Mr President, just for the record, I am not an author of this resolution. I do not know who has put my name down because I have not signed it.

I just want to say that I am really surprised to see this item as an urgency before we have debated it properly in either the Subcommittee on Human Rights, or for that matter, any other subcommittee or delegation of this Parliament. This is not a new issue and it has been extensively investigated by the media in India. It has been raised over and over again. It would have been good to have had the debate before. This is the reason that the Socialist Group were against having this item as an urgency now because we believed it should have been properly discussed in committee before.

The whole urgency is based on reports by a single NGO. I am not denying that these things are happening, but I have had communication with the Commission, who are calling into question various things in this report. So I would really question what it does for this Parliament’s credibility to have an urgency before things are properly investigated.

As Chairwoman of the European Parliament’s Delegation for relations with India, I personally would have liked an opportunity to look at the contents of this report and examine how many cases we are looking at and the result of the conflict in the region, where there have already been something like 4 500 deaths among military personnel and 13 000 civilians have lost their lives. The graves we are talking about are in the line of control.

This resolution text ignores the fact that the issue has been investigated over the last five years, following the 2002 elections, and I have been informed that NGOs have had access to the area and have been invited to submit their names of disappeared persons to help the authorities to identify the graves. Nobody is denying that security forces have been involved in disappearances. What this resolution leaves out is that they have been investigated by the authorities. I personally would urge this House not to vote for this resolution.

  Tunne Kelam, on behalf of the PPE-DE Group. – Mr President, I can only join in the concerns about the discovery of hundreds of graves in Jammu and Kashmir since 2006, but I am particularly concerned about the armed attack on the respected human rights lawyer, Pervez Imroz, just 11 days ago in Srinagar, and the continuous harassment of numerous human rights activists. I think it is opportune, therefore, to urge the Indian Government to launch an independent investigation into these graves and as a first step to secure the grave sites so as to preserve the evidence.

We also call on the European Commission to offer the Indian Government financial and technical assistance through the Stability Instrument for such an inquiry, and possibly further measures of conflict resolution in Kashmir.

  Sarah Ludford, on behalf of the ALDE Group. – Mr President, I think we should be clear what this motion for a resolution is not: it is not a re-run of the rather controversial and contentious report that we had last year; it is not about how to get a political solution to the territorial dispute and conflict over Kashmir. It is nothing of the sort. It is a simple focus on humanitarian questions, with a call for an independent and impartial investigation and accountability for alleged disappearances.

It could have been handled in various ways. It is true that these discoveries of unidentified graves go back to 2006. But two things prompted the urgency request. One was the report going back to 29 March from the Association of the Parents of Disappeared Persons and the second was the attack on 30 June, with perpetrators unknown, on Pervez Imroz, the award-winning human rights lawyer and founder of that association. I think that justifies the urgency.

At least part of the purpose of this resolution is to urge some action by the European Union, not least in paragraph 2, which urges the Commission to offer financial and technical assistance to the Indian Government. It also calls for EU Member States to take up the issue in the dialogue on human rights with the Indian Government in the second half of this year. So the focus is on getting an independent investigation and not least to assign a civilian prosecutor to the task. I think it is justified and is something that has a particular and circumscribed focus and does not talk about the whole issue of Kashmir.

  Leopold Józef Rutowicz, w imieniu grupy UEN. – Panie Przewodniczący! Rezolucja mówi o faktach, które są wynikiem trwającego od pięćdziesięciu lat konfliktu o Kaszmir pomiędzy Pakistanem a Indiami. Konflikt był przyczyną kilku wojen. Beneficjentem konfliktu były tylko Chiny. W konflikcie pośrednio brały udział Związek Rosyjski, Stany Zjednoczone, finanse pochodzące z krajów arabskich oraz Chiny. Pozytywną rolę w łagodzeniu konfliktu odegrała Organizacja Narodów Zjednoczonych. Konflikt dalej trwa i ataki fundamentalistów przynoszą ciągle krwawe żniwo. I to jest najpoważniejszy problem obywateli Kaszmiru. Ofiary po stronie indyjskiej są chowane, a po pakistańskiej w wielu przypadkach są przedmiotem zemsty. Kluczową rolę w rozwiązaniu konfliktu i ocenie faktów powinna odegrać Organizacja Narodów Zjednoczonych, a nie my. My czujemy się moralnie zobowiązani, o ile nie wystąpi o to demokratyczny rząd Indii, do pomocy w stabilizacji sytuacji w Kaszmirze i oceny moralnej działań w konflikcie. Prowadzenie dyskusji na ten temat uważam bardziej za manifestację polityczną, niż pragmatyczne działanie. Nie popieram rezolucji.

  Laima Liucija Andrikienė (PPE-DE). – Mes puikiai žinome, kad ginkluotas konfliktas Jamu ir Kašmyre tęsiasi jau kelis dešimtmečius. Tačiau šiandien svarbu tai, kad nepaisant Indijos vyriausybės įsipareigojimų netoleruoti žmogaus teisių pažeidimų Jamu ir Kašmyre, pasaulio visuomenę ir toliau pasiekia pranešimai apie žmogaus teisių pažeidimus, o dabar - ir apie daugybę nenustatytų asmenų kapų, kuriuose - šimtai nežinomų žmonių palaikų. Mes norime ir turime žinoti, kas buvo tie žmonės, kieno prievartos aukomis jie tapo, kuo ir kam jie prasikalto.

Mes ne tik smerkiame žudymus bei prievartinius dingimus, bet ir reikalaujame, kad Indijos vyriausybė atliktų nepriklausomą ir išsamų masinių kapaviečių tyrimą, o prieš tai ir apsaugotų jas, siekiant išsaugoti įrodymus. Tikiu, kad Europos Komisija ras galimybių suteikti finansinę ir techninę paramą Indijos vyriausybei atlikti šiems tyrimams.

  Marios Matsakis (ALDE). – Mr President, I only want to take the floor again because, as an author of this resolution, I feel obliged to answer what Mrs Gill has said. It is extremely rare that the urgency subjects we discuss on Thursday afternoon go before a committee before they come here, otherwise they would not be urgent. It is an urgency because there are mass graves which have been discovered recently, and we need to sort this problem out.

Secondly, if the Socialist Group wants to have a majority when voting, then perhaps Mrs Gill’s group should make sure that their MEPs do not leave before the end of the part-session in order to go back home earlier – while we have to stay here and discuss and vote. I would say to Mrs Gill: I think you should first look at your MEPs because you are the one who is complaining about it, and then discuss other groups’ MEPs.

  Zdzisław Zbigniew Podkański (UEN). – Panie Przewodniczący! Zbiorowe mogiły, masowe pochówki tysięcy osób w stanach Dżammu i Kaszmir mrożą krew w żyłach. Nam, Europejczykom, przypominają zbrodnie niemieckie i sowieckie, mroczne strony faszyzmu i stalinizmu. Odżywa pamięć o hitlerowskich obozach koncentracyjnych i o sowieckim mordzie katyńskim na polskich oficerach. Po dawnych i współczesnych doświadczeniach powinniśmy zrobić wszystko, by położyć kres ludobójstwu, a tam gdzie ono już miało miejsce upamiętnić je i oddać rodzinom prawo do grobów swoich przodków i ich zadośćuczynienia. Sytuacja w Kaszmirze wymaga udzielenia rządowi Indii niezbędnej pomocy finansowej i technicznej oraz wzmocnienia oddziaływania ONZ, by unormować sytuację w tym regionie świata.

  Kathy Sinnott (IND/DEM). – Mr President, when mass graves are found, wherever they are found, it is imperative to find out who the victims are, how and why they were killed, who is investigating and who is being investigated. Rather than being an incendiary activity, it establishes the truth and honours the humanity of the victims, and that is the start of establishing the truth that sets us all free.

  Olli Rehn, Member of the Commission. − Mr President, the Commission is aware of, and has seen reports about, mass graves in Indian-administered Kashmir and we are following closely requests from NGOs to the Indian Government to launch urgent, impartial and independent investigations on this matter. Meanwhile, the Indian authorities and the government at central level remain silent on the report.

We have also received information that the lawyer Pervez Imroz and another NGO activist who investigated the charges of human rights violations in Kashmir were subjected to intimidation and harassment on 20 and 21 June.

The Commission delegation in New Delhi is further investigating this matter, in close cooperation with the French Presidency and the Member States’ embassies in the Indian capital. The Presidency has contacted the resident Commissioner of Indian-administered Kashmir in New Delhi and has expressed the EU’s concerns over the situation. If accurate, such reports would constitute very worrying developments as to the respect of democratic principles and the rule of law, and would run counter to certain positive developments in Indian-administered Kashmir, such as the composite dialogue, which is still on track.

  Le Président. – Le débat est clos.

Le vote aura lieu à l'issue des débats sauf, comme je l'ai annoncé tout à l'heure, s'il y a absence de quorum déposé et constaté dans les formes.

(1) Voir procès-verbal.