Pełne sprawozdanie z obrad

Wtorek, 15 czerwca 2010 r. - Strasburg

11. Tura pytań do przewodniczącego Komisji Europejskiej

  Przewodniczący. − Kolejnym punktem porządku dziennego jest tura pytań z udziałem przewodniczącego Komisji.

  Manfred Weber, im Namen der PPE-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident, Herr Kommissionspräsident, liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen! Die Kommission hat heute in der Sitzung das neue SWIFT-Abkommen angenommen, und es ist dort mit großer Mehrheit oder sogar einstimmig beschlossen worden.

Ich möchte den Kommissionspräsidenten fragen – weil ihm sicherlich bekannt ist, dass sich die Bürger viele Sorgen machen, wenn wir Daten weitergeben –, wo er die wesentlichen Fortschritte sieht und wie wir die Bürger von der Notwendigkeit dieses Abkommens überzeugen können.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − It is true that the revised draft agreement was today adopted unanimously by the Commission. We believe it is subject to strict compliance with safeguards on privacy and the protection of personal data. It ensures the principle of necessity and proportionality and its purpose is strictly limited to the prevention, investigation, detection or prosecution of terrorism and terrorist financing.

The agreement, as it stands now, respects fundamental rights and observes the principles recognised in particular by the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The agreement secures significant safeguards for the data when processed by the provider. It provides also for transparency of the use of data and the availability of a process for seeking judicial redress.

The Commission therefore considers that this draft is compatible with respect for fundamental rights and will give appropriate answers to Parliament concerns, as expressed when the resolution on the interim fifth agreement was voted in March 2010.

  Manfred Weber, im Namen der PPE-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident! Nur eine kurze Nachfrage. Es geht ja zunächst um die Sache, um die Inhalte des Abkommens, das Sie dargestellt haben. Ich würde gerne noch einmal nachfragen: Welche Bedeutung hat dieses Abkommen in den transatlantischen Beziehungen? Wie wichtig ist es für die Themen, die wir sonst noch mit den Amerikanern zu diskutieren haben? Wenn Sie uns da eine Einschätzung geben könnten, wäre ich sehr dankbar.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − It is extremely important, in fact. I can tell you that our American partners consider this to be probably one of the first priorities, if not the first priority, in the current discussions with the European Union. This agreement is crucial for European Union relations with the US. Since 1 January 2010, significant volumes of data which were previously received by the US Administration have not been available, and this is creating problems in their programme. That is why we believe we should also solve this, bearing in mind the importance of transatlantic relations. Of course, these transatlantic relations are critically important, but this does not mean that we should not stick to our principles of privacy and data protection.

At the same time I think we have reached a very, very good agreement now and Commissioner Malmström has done very important work. So I also believe that from a broader political point of view it is important that we come to an agreement on this matter with our American partners.

  Martin Schulz, im Namen der S&D-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident, Herr Kommissionspräsident! Im Anschluss an die Fragen meines Kollegen Manfred Weber hat Kommissarin Malmström das Kollegium darüber informiert, dass gegen den jetzigen Verhandlungsstand in diesem Haus große Bedenken bestehen.

Ist sich die Kommission darüber im Klaren, dass das, was sie heute beschlossen hat, sicher nicht das ist, was das Parlament für ausreichende Fortschritte hält? Sind Sie sich darüber im Klaren, Herr Präsident, dass Sie heute etwas angenommen haben, das, wenn es so umgesetzt wird, dazu führt, dass Beschäftigte eines Privatunternehmens, der Firma Swift zum Beispiel, mehr Kontrollrechte haben als Beamte der Europäischen Union? Hat Sie Frau Malmström über diese Dinge aufgeklärt? Wenn ja, wie konnten Sie es dann beschließen? Wenn nein, warum hat Frau Malmström Sie darüber nicht aufgeklärt?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. – Of course, the College was permanently informed by the Commissioner responsible about the negotiation process. Just today Commissioner Malmström informed us about the final outcome of those negotiations. More than that, she told us that she has maintained a very intensive dialogue with many of you in the European Parliament. We are well aware of the concerns expressed by this Parliament and she told me that she has kept Parliament regularly informed in terms of the negotiation process.

The Commission has fulfilled its role in negotiating; it is now up to Parliament to accept or not to accept the deal. I strongly recommend you do because it is important for the security of European citizens as well. We believe that we have achieved the necessary level of protection in terms of fundamental rights and data protection, but of course this is a very sensitive matter. We believe that the rights of this Parliament have been fully taken on board but we had to negotiate on behalf of the European Union and, as I told you, today’s decision of the Commission was taken unanimously.

  Martin Schulz, im Namen der S&D-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident! Herr Kommissionspräsident, vielen Dank für die freundlichen Beschreibungen Ihrer Debatte. Das war aber nicht die Antwort auf meine Frage. Deshalb versuche ich es noch einmal präziser, und ich bitte Sie, sehr präzise zu antworten.

Hat Ihnen Frau Malmström bei der Debatte in der Kommission vor der Beschlussfassung des Kollegiums gesagt, dass mit dem Text, den Sie jetzt als Abkommen vorlegen, die Gefahr besteht, dass das Parlament mit Nein stimmt? Oder hat Frau Malmström Ihnen gesagt: „Mit diesem Text kriegen wir eine parlamentarische Mehrheit“? Ich wiederhole sehr präzise: Hat Frau Malmström gesagt: „Mit diesem Text kriegen wir eine parlamentarische Mehrheit“, oder hat sie gesagt: „Mit diesem Text ist die parlamentarische Mehrheit nicht sicher“? Ich wäre Ihnen dankbar, wenn Sie präzise antworten.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − Commissioner Malmström cannot prejudge what Parliament’s vote will be. She is perfectly aware of that.

Your question was if Mrs Malmström had told me or the College about what the vote or the reaction of Parliament would be: if it was going to vote ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

Of course, she hopes it will be in favour. If not, she would not have completed the negotiations on behalf of the Commission. After Parliament’s ‘no’ vote some months ago, we had a very important discussion in the Commission. I also spoke with Commissioner Malmström several times. We are aware, and she personally is very well aware because she has invested a lot of time in contacts with Parliament, about some questions that may be raised regarding this agreement, but we are not anticipating now how Parliament will vote. I can tell you this now. She could not tell me, but she told me that she is still in consultation with Parliament. There is not yet an agreement when a vote will take place on that proposed agreement.

This is what I can tell you, to the best of my knowledge, about the information that the Commissioner responsible gave to me and to the College.

  Guy Verhofstadt, au nom du groupe ALDE. – Monsieur le Président, je ne vais pas poser de question sur Swift, soyez rassurés, on va en parler plus tard, mais, hier, Mme Merkel et M. Sarkozy ont fait leur sommet. Ils ont décidé d'une approche de gouvernance économique dans l'Union et non pas dans la zone euro. Personnellement, je ne crois pas qu'il s'agisse d'une décision très pertinente, parce que la question n'est pas d'opposer la zone euro à l'Union européenne. On a besoin de gouvernance économique dans l'Union européenne et on a besoin de gouvernance économique dans la zone euro, dans les deux. Et plus intensément encore dans la zone euro que dans l'Union européenne puisqu'on a la monnaie unique.

La question que je pose au Président est la suivante: qu'est-ce que vous en pensez? Êtes-vous d'accord avec nous pour dire qu'il faut autant de gouvernance économique dans la zone euro que dans l'Union européenne? Deuxièmement, nous sommes d'avis que c'est la Commission qui doit guider cette gouvernance économique. Il est impossible qu'un Conseil qui se réunit quatre fois par an puisse assurer la gouvernance économique en Europe avec tous les problèmes qu'on connaît. C'est maintenant à la Commission d'occuper le siège du conducteur. Et je demande aussi la position de la Commission sur cette affaire.

  José Manuel Barroso, Président de la Commission. − Monsieur le Président, Monsieur Verhofstadt, bien sûr, en ce qui concerne les compétences qui sont déjà données à l'Union, la Commission est le gouvernement économique de l'Europe. C'est la seule réponse compatible avec le traité. En ce qui concerne le commerce, la concurrence, en ce qui concerne une partie très importante des pouvoirs de surveillance budgétaire, c'est la Commission et je crois qu'il faut parfois rappeler cela à certains de nos gouvernements qui n'ont pas suffisamment lu les traités.

Ceci dit, la Commission seule ne peut pas remplir cette tâche. Il faut travailler avec le Conseil qui a des compétences très importantes et aussi avec le Conseil européen qui donne la direction générale, l'impulsion générale aux travaux de l'Union. Et je suis aussi d'accord votre première déclaration. En fait, nous avons la réponse pour la zone euro et pour l'ensemble de l'Union européenne. Il suffit de lire de l'article 136. L'article 136 du traité de Lisbonne nous ouvre maintenant des possibilités bien plus vastes d'avoir des propositions pour la zone euro, parce qu'il a effectivement une spécificité dans la zone euro; plus de devoirs impliquent aussi plus de droits pour ceux qui ont la même monnaie, mais aussi pour l'ensemble de l'Union. Donc j'espère qu'on va renforcer la gouvernance économique de l'Union européenne, mais toujours dans le respect de l'esprit du traité et de la méthode communautaire.

  Guy Verhofstadt, au nom du groupe ALDE. – Monsieur le Président, le premier test viendra naturellement jeudi quand nous allons aussi décider de l'Europe 2020. J'espère en tout cas, Monsieur le Président de la Commission, que dans l'Europe 2020, ce n'est pas le Conseil qui va faire le monitoring et qui va gérer cela. C'est la Commission qui doit s'en charger, parce que je n'ai jamais vu de chefs d'État et de gouvernement se punir et se critiquer mutuellement. Entre pairs, cela ne se fait pas et c'est pour cela que je crois que la Commission doit défendre sa position dans le 2020 ainsi que dans le groupe de travail que M. Van Rompuy est en train de diriger.

  José Manuel Barroso, Président de la Commission. − Monsieur le Président, Monsieur Verhofstadt, vous-même avez été membre du Conseil européen, vous connaissez bien le Conseil européen. Effectivement, le Conseil européen est une institution très importante, mais le Conseil européen ne peut pas faire le micro management de la politique économique. Ce serait une erreur fondamentale.

Non seulement ce serait contre l'esprit des traités, mais ce serait une erreur fondamentale. Le Conseil européen donne, bien sûr, la direction, l'impulsion – c'est l'article 16 du traité –, mais après c'est aux différentes institutions, à la Commission, dans les compétences qu'elle a, mais aussi au Conseil, dans ses différentes formations, qu'il appartient de vérifier l'exécution des politiques.

Je tiens à vous dire que la Commission est déterminée à jouer pleinement son rôle en ce qui concerne le monitoring de tout le processus de la stratégie 2020. Nous attendons maintenant le soutien de nos États membres à cette stratégie. Je suis encouragé par les discussions qui se sont déroulées jusqu'à présent. J'attends aussi le soutien du Parlement européen, je suis très encouragé par les positions prises par ce Parlement et je peux vous dire que la Commission est prête à remplir pleinement son rôle.

J'aimerais pour terminer, Monsieur le Président, vous remercier très sincèrement pour la position très claire que les quatre principales formations politiques de ce Parlement ont prise en conférence de presse pour la défense de la méthode communautaire et du respect de l'esprit du traité de Lisbonne.

  Rebecca Harms, im Namen der Verts/ALE-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident, Herr Kommissionspräsident! Themenwechsel: Golf von Mexiko. Deep Water Horizon, ich glaube, das ist ein Begriff, der zurzeit die Menschen rund um die Welt noch einmal neu mit der Idee der Grenzen des Wachstums, der Grenzen auch des verschwenderischen Gebrauchs von Öl und der Grenzen von Mensch und Technik konfrontiert. Ich würde gerne in diesem Zusammenhang wissen, Herr Barroso, wie die Kommission darüber denkt, dass man da, wo die Europäische Union zuständig ist, vorsorgend die geplante Öl- und Gasförderung in der nördlichen Nordsee und in der Arktis verbietet. Das ist eine Sache, die jetzt noch entschieden werden kann.

Ich möchte zweitens wissen, ob Sie tatsächlich glauben, dass uns die Regelungen, die wir in der Europäischen Union für Öl- und Gasförderung haben, vor der Wiederholung solcher Katastrophen da, wo wir zuständig sind, schützen.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − We do not know yet the reasons for the accident in the US as the investigation is still under way. It is important to know whether the causes were mainly of a technical nature or linked to shortcomings in the regulatory framework or in compliance by industry. Therefore it is too early to provide evidence of what might or could happen in Europe.

While oil exploration in Europe is not taking place in the same extreme conditions as those in the Gulf of Mexico, we must also deal with the possibility of an accident near our shores. Drilling techniques have similarities, even if the waters are much shallower in the North Sea.

The Commission is following developments closely. Commissioner Oettinger had already convened a meeting in May with major oil companies active in EU waters in order to get a precise picture of the situation in Europe and to obtain assurances from the industry on the current levels of safety.

The Commission works with the Member States to ensure robust prevention and emergency response systems in order to protect European citizens and the environment.

  Rebecca Harms, im Namen der Verts/ALE-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident! Ich würde Sie bitten, doch noch einmal zu sagen, ob Sie meinen, dass die Umwelthaftungsrichtlinie für Öl- und Gasförderung im Meer ausreichend ist. Ich möchte gerne wissen, ob Sie glauben, dass uneinheitliche und relativ niedrige Haftungsobergrenzen tatsächlich das sind, was wir angesichts der Katastrophe am Golf brauchen. Und ich möchte gerne wissen, ob Sie darüber diskutieren, dass technische Kontrollen auf Plattformen unbedingt verbessert werden. Sind Sie wirklich der Auffassung, dass Umwelt- und klimatische Bedingungen in der Arktis menschen- und technikfreundlich sind, um solche Risiken der Untersee-Ölförderung auch dort einzugehen. Es ist nicht genauso tief wie im Golf von Mexiko, aber die Bedingungen sind hart.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − Yes, you are right. Firstly, we have legislation. We have binding new standards and requirements applicable to offshore drilling and oil production facilities as regards equipment standards, worker safety, environmental sustainability, emergency prevention and preparedness. In addition, the Member States have enacted extensive national legislation to maintain a high level of safety of offshore operations in Europe.

Secondly, we have an information response system ready to fight disasters caused by oil spills from tankers or drilling and production facilities. This system includes a set of tools managed by the European Maritime Agency, focusing on prevention of pollution and response to pollution.

Thirdly, there is a Community civil protection mechanism that can give a response to any major crisis situation. Regarding the concrete point you made on liability, most European legislation on safety and the environment does not target particular industries, but we can see that this legislation is applicable to all relevant economic sectors. EU legislation sets minimum safety standards which individual Member States must strive to meet through their legislation. This is line with the principle of subsidiarity.

  Timothy Kirkhope, on behalf of the ECR Group. – May I return to EU-US relations just for a moment to say how pleased that I and my group – my group being a major group in this context – are to hear about the SWIFT Agreement progress which we have been very much involved with.

Can I ask President Barroso to perhaps tell us what useful lessons have been learned by the Commission in relation to the SWIFT Agreement which may be successfully and usefully employed when we deal with the very important PNR agreements that await our attention, now with the United States in the first place, but also with Canada and Australia?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − It is probably too soon to draw all the lessons because we have not yet completed the process.

I am very much looking forward to the completion of the process in good harmony with the European Parliament because we cannot deliver without your support. That is, frankly, important.

There are two basic issues here.

One is one about security with respect to fundamental rights and data protection. We are attached to this and we believe that this agreement, as it stands now, responds to the concerns expressed by Parliament after its first vote.

There is also another more general point that you, Mr Kirkhope, highlighted, and I thank you for that. That is the importance of relations with the United States of America. The USA is one of our most important partners, if not the most important, so I believe that we should also try politically to come to an agreement.

Vice President Biden came here and made a very, let us say, passionate case for the importance of transatlantic relations, also in this field. The Commission will not recommend the vote if we are not convinced that it is for the benefit of European citizens. I want to underline that point. It is for our security as well. At the same time, we would like to have it also as a signal of our commitment to what is a very important relationship with our most important partner.

  Timothy Kirkhope, on behalf of the ECR Group. – I agree entirely with that. I think the European Parliament's behaviour on this, particularly latterly, has been a good democratic example for everybody. My supplementary deals with the question of sharing the burden on counter-terrorism between the United States and the European Union. Does the President believe that the agreements which we have been discussing place too much of a burden on the United States as opposed to allowing us to adopt the burden or be subject to the burden of sharing responsibilities and resources in respect of counter-terrorism?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − I think this is an important point. In fact, during our conversation with the Americans, they told us that they are ready to support us if we want to establish a similar system at European level. That is a decision that we have to take here in Europe.

What we are accepting by this agreement is to provide some data, subject to strict conditions, to the American authorities, but we could also think about what we could do better among ourselves. The Americans told us they were ready to help us technically because they have more investment in that area than we have. I think that could be something for the future because I believe that we must all contribute to the fight against terrorism. It would be a great mistake to think that the fight against terrorism is an American responsibility and that we are just them supporting them. It is a joint responsibility to fight against terrorism and to protect the security of all our citizens.

  Gabriele Zimmer, im Namen der GUE/NGL-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident! Das Europäische Parlament hat heute den Bericht von Herrn Cashman zur Durchsetzung der Millenniums-Entwicklungsziele angenommen. Eine unserer wichtigsten Botschaften an die Kommission, an Sie, lautet, dass wir natürlich alles dafür tun wollen, dass sämtliche Ressourcen der EU gebündelt werden, um die Millenniums-Entwicklungsziele bis 2015 durchzusetzen.

Die EU und ihre Mitgliedstaaten haben aber bisher ihre Verpflichtungen nicht eingehalten. Gegenwärtig gibt es ein Defizit von 20 Milliarden Euro allein bei den Verpflichtungen, die zu den Millenniums-Entwicklungszielen übernommen worden sind. Ich möchte deshalb gerne von Ihnen wissen, was Sie – auch mit Blick auf die bevorstehende Ratstagung – unternehmen werden, um insbesondere die Mitgliedstaaten an ihre Verpflichtungen zu erinnern und Druck auszuüben, dass die EU bei der UN-Konferenz im September ein geschlossenes, klares Bild abgibt und nicht zulässt, dass die einzelnen Mitgliedstaaten angesichts der wachsenden Krise von ihren Verpflichtungen immer weiter abrücken, wo doch 1 Milliarde Menschen heute in Armut lebt und hungert.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − Mr President, I fully agree with the concern that your question raises. In fact there is now a risk that, because of the budgetary constraints in some Member States, some commitments are not respected.

The Commission had a meeting some days ago in Addis Ababa with the African Union Commission, and one of the points raised by our partners in Africa was that sometimes they feel that commitments are not respected. So it is question of credibility and accountability, also on our side.

So, certainly, the Commission will defend the fact that we should keep our commitments. For instance, the commitments taken in terms of fast-start financing for the fight against climate change. I intend to go to the high-level event in New York. Just today I received a letter from Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon highlighting the importance of this agenda, and we fully share his concerns.

I will raise the issue not only in the European Council this week, but also in the G20 and G8 outreach meetings the week afterwards in Canada. So, we remain very much committed to this.

I participated in the Gleneagles G8 summit several years ago and, in fact, the reality is that the most developed countries have not yet fulfilled all that they committed to do.

  Gabriele Zimmer, im Namen der GUE/NGL-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident! Ich zweifle überhaupt nicht daran, dass die Kommission in den zurückliegenden Jahren immer wieder mit eigenen Initiativen aufgetreten ist, um sich genau diesen Aufgaben der Entwicklungspolitik zu stellen. Für mich stellt sich eher die Frage, was innerhalb der Kommission unternommen wird, um die Strukturen, die Ressourcen und die Voraussetzungen zu schaffen, dass zum Beispiel auch der Zwölfpunkteplan, der durch die Kommission – insbesondere durch Kommissar Piebalgs – aufgelegt worden ist, umgesetzt wird. Das heißt: Was tut die Kommission selbst, um für die Kohärenz der Politiken die Voraussetzungen zu schaffen? Und warum spielen dann beispielsweise solche gravierenden Aufgaben wie der Kampf zur Durchsetzung der Millenniums-Entwicklungsziele keine Rolle in der Strategie Europa 2020?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − The Commission is doing its part through the Community budget. In fact, on several occasions, we proposed additional funding to the Member States. I remember for instance in the G8 in Japan I proposed an additional EUR 1 billion for helping rural development in Africa and in other developing parts of the world, to come from the unspent money.

Now, to fulfil all the commitments on the European side, most of it has to come from the national budgets. In the current framework, with the current financial perspectives, we cannot be much more flexible. So that is what we are doing – speaking with our Member States so that we can in fact deliver on our previous commitments.

  Νίκη Τζαβέλα, εξ ονόματος της ομάδας EFD. – Κύριε Πρόεδρε, συνεχίζω με ερώτηση σχετικά με την ανάπτυξη και ενόψει της συνόδου του Συμβουλίου μεθαύριο την Πέμπτη. Η παρούσα οικονομική κρίση και η απειλούμενη ύφεση στην Ευρώπη πρέπει να αντιμετωπιστούν κυρίως με αύξηση των επενδύσεων. Βασικό μέλημα λοιπόν είναι η εξασφάλιση πόρων χρηματοδότησης.

Η ερώτησή μου είναι η εξής: σκέφτεστε, ως πολιτικός ηγέτης της οικονομικής ανάπτυξης της Ευρώπης και η Επιτροπή ως Σώμα, ότι μπορεί να εξεταστεί η περίπτωση έκδοσης ευρωπαϊκών ομολόγων για τη χρηματοδότηση ευρωπαϊκών αναπτυξιακών μεγα-επενδύσεων, όπως διευρωπαϊκοί αυτοκινητόδρομοι υψηλής ταχύτητας, διευρωπαϊκή έρευνα για τις κλιματικές αλλαγές, το e-health, πανευρωπαϊκό σύστημα ναυσιπλοΐας ή μεγάλες επενδύσεις στην ενέργεια, π.χ. LNG Terminals στην Ευρωμεσόγειο: μεγάλα πανευρωπαϊκού χαρακτήρα επενδυτικά έργα που θα καλυφθούν με την έκδοση ομολόγων;

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − We hope these issues will be addressed in the next financial perspectives. Indeed, already in the EU 2020 we are making everything to do with these interconnections a priority for future financing at European level, be this in energy, in transport, or in other forms of immaterial connections, such as the digital agenda.

This is very much one of the sectors where we believe there is value added, where a euro spent at European level makes more sense than one spent at national level because there is a European rationale for this kind of investment.

How to finance that does of course have to be discussed with the Member States. This is a very difficult time to discuss budgets with our Member States, but we believe we can make a strong case for stronger interconnections at European level.

  Νίκη Τζαβέλα, εξ ονόματος της ομάδας EFD. – Κύριε Πρόεδρε, πιστεύω ότι δεν πήρα την απάντησή μου. Πιστεύετε ότι μπορούμε να αντιμετωπίσουμε τον κίνδυνο της ύφεσης με πανευρωπαϊκά συντονισμένες και άμεσες ενέργειες εκδίδοντας ευρωπαϊκά ομόλογα;

Μην ξεχνάτε ότι έχουμε να αντιμετωπίσουμε μια μεγάλη ανταγωνιστική παγκόσμια αγορά, την Ινδία, την Κίνα, την Αμερική. Η Ευρώπη θα ανταποκριθεί με μεγάλες επενδύσεις πανευρωπαϊκής κλίμακας; Θα παίξουν κάποιο ρόλο τα ευρωομόλογα καλύπτοντας αυτές τις επενδύσεις; Τι έχετε κατά νου;

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − Frankly speaking, I do not believe that there is now openness among all Member States to consider Eurobonds for this kind of expenditure. Just recently we adopted a very important, ambitious programme in terms of a mechanism or a facility for helping countries with problems of debt. It is in fact some kind of obligation which Member States take to the financial markets, so I believe it will be extremely difficult to now get from the Member States the agreement with the Eurobonds principle for this kind of projects. Nevertheless, I think there are some possibilities of using other mechanisms. In my programme I spoke for instance about having some public/private partnerships; I spoke about involving the European Investment Bank in a better way; we are looking very openly at all the possibilities of financing for those very important projects. But if you want my honest answer, it is that it would be difficult, if not impossible, now to get Eurobonds for that specifiic purpose.

  Diane Dodds (NI). - President Barroso, you have been a supporter of Northern Ireland and the important progress that has been achieved in creating a stable and peaceful future for our people. In your task force report, you indicated your support and that of the Commission for the local devolved administration and the work that it is doing in securing a peaceful and prosperous future for the people of Northern Ireland.

In this time of economic turbulence, the agri-food industry in Northern Ireland is one of the most important sectors of the economy. This very important work could suffer from the proposed penalties for alleged breaches of the single farm payment scheme identified by Commission auditors.

Mr Barroso, would you agree that the proposed penalties on the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland for breaches of the SFP scheme between 2004 and 2006 are disproportionate in relation to the actual risk to the scheme? Will you and DG AGRI agree to look again at the suggestion of a five per cent flat-rate disallowance, given that the department in Northern Ireland is taking remedial steps to ensure that systems are accurate and that money has already been recovered in relation to the original claims?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − Thank you for the comments regarding the support that the Commission has been giving to Northern Ireland. Indeed we are very pleased about, and supportive of, the developments in Northern Ireland. The Commission has invested heavily in this process. I remember also my visit to Northern Ireland and will continue to do so.

I am aware of the issue you have raised of the single farm payment scheme. Commissioner Cioloş has outlined our position on this, but let me state very clearly that the clearance of accounts procedure is an administrative one. The Member State concerned is given a full opportunity to express its view, but the independence of the process is vital.

The Commission does not enjoy any discretion in the level of corrections, which follows established principles to ensure equal treatment to all Member States. I am sure that you all agree in this Parliament about the need to respect fully our regulations in terms of accountability. It is critically important. Just yesterday I had a very interesting meeting lasting several hours with the Commission and the Court of Auditors and I want to tell you that, while supporting Northern Ireland very much, we have to respect strictly all the rules in terms of accountability.

  Diane Dodds (NI). - I will just take up your time for one supplementary question in relation to that.

There is some concern in Northern Ireland that the actual disallowance rate has been levied on a very small level of sporadic inspections.

I would be grateful if the President would ensure that the Commission undertake proper evaluation of the procedures that are now in place to ensure that the scheme is properly administered.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − Of course I can give you all the guarantees on the part of the Commission that we will try to ensure that the scheme is properly administered.

But once again the clearance of accounts procedure is an initiative procedure which includes several steps ensuring the Member States' right of defence, as well as the opportunity for conciliation by an independent body. And now we have to engage with this in a serious, objective manner.

  Corien Wortmann-Kool (PPE). - Voorzitter, voorzitter Barroso, u hebt net een duidelijke uitspraak gedaan. De Europese Commissie is de economische regering van Europa. Maar in deze tijd waarin we de economische governance willen versterken hebben we meer communautaire methode nodig. Wij staan aan uw kant, maar in kringen van de Raad leven ideeën om meer in de richting van een intergouvernementele methode te gaan, ook bijvoorbeeld als het gaat om het stabiliteits- en groeipact.

Welke cruciale elementen met betrekking tot de task force en de uitkomst moeten er volgens u in deze conclusies komen om te komen tot een versterking van de economische governance en een versterking van het stabiliteits- en groeipact met de communautaire methode? Kunt u eens wat concrete elementen aangeven? Dat is ook heel goed voor de publieke discussie.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − The task force was created in the specific context of support for Greece and, as you know, the Commission is participating in the task force in a fully constructive and loyal way. In fact the task force was established by the President of the European Council in cooperation with the Commission. The Commission is participating in the task force and I am happy with the way that work is progressing in the task force. There is a consensus emerging on steps towards economic coordination in Europe, and most of those steps are completely in line with the proposals made by our communication of 12 May. So may I say that this task force is performing an important task, because they have addressed important points like the implementation of the Stability and Growth Pact and the European Semester. I am looking forward to the report of the President of the European Council to the European Council on Thursday. The Commission will of course not abdicate from its right of initiative and will present further proposals, building also on the consensus emerging in that task force.

  Elżbieta Katarzyna Łukacijewska (PPE). - Wiemy, jak trudna jest sytuacja ekonomiczna i gospodarcza niektórych krajów członkowskich, jaki ma to wpływ na emocje mieszkańców, nie tylko tych krajów, i na decyzje podejmowane przez poszczególne rządy.

Niedawno mówił Pan, Panie Przewodniczący, o konieczności obrony jedności Unii Europejskiej i utrzymania unijnej integracji w ramach 27 krajów członkowskich. Chciałabym zapytać, dowiedzieć się, jak Pan zamierza bronić tego postulatu w sytuacji, kiedy coraz silniejsza staje się presja tworzenia nowych rozwiązań, jak choćby pomysł utworzenia europejskiego urzędu ds. gospodarki, który prowadziłby do zacieśnienia koordynacji gospodarczej w strefie Euro? Jakie może Pan również dać nam gwarancje, że kraje, które z dużym wysiłkiem nadrabiają różnice rozwojowe, nie zostaną przesunięte do drugiej ligi Unii Europejskiej?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − First of all I have stated several times in this Parliament and on other occasions that we are against any kind of competing or parallel divisions of institutions in the European Union.

We have one Union, the European Union, with our institutions, with the 27 Member States today, and of course we fully respect the Treaties.

We can, in the current framework, do more for economic coordination and clearance. We have, namely, Article 121 of the Treaty that is clear in stating that Member States’ economic policies are a matter of common concern. What a Member State does has implications in the other Member States. Article 121 is an implicit call for coordination by Member States. We have Article 126 that deals specifically with budgetary policies, and Article 136 allows the Commission to take initiatives to reinforce coordination, also within the euro area but within the general Community framework.

This is the important point to understand. We can make some proposals for the euro area, but always within the framework of the European Union, and not having the euro area as something separate from the rest of the European Union. I believe this is critically important for the success of a Union that is really based on the principle of solidarity.

  Sergio Gaetano Cofferati (S&D). - Signor Presidente, onorevoli colleghi, io ho un'opinione in verità un po' diversa da quella del Presidente Barroso relativamente al lavoro degli ultimi mesi della Commissione e della stessa task force.

Ho la sensazione molto netta – e vorrei che lei mi smentisse – che abbia preso corpo con tutta evidenza, anche mediatica, l'idea del processo di risanamento e delle azioni di rigore necessarie – azioni indispensabili, di questo son convinto anch'io – e che si sia attenuata molto, invece, l'idea della crescita e dello sviluppo. Il Patto di stabilità e di crescita rischia di diventare solo Patto di stabilità, se non nelle intenzioni almeno nei comportamenti annunciati.

Io credo invece che sia indispensabile mettere in campo, a cominciare dalla creazione degli eurobond, azioni che siano in grado di sostenere la crescita. Vorrei sapere da lei se davvero l'interesse alla crescita è un interesse radicato sia nella task force ma ancor di più nella Commissione.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − The Task Force was for economic governance and, when I was expressing my overall satisfaction with the work so far, I was referring to that. Of course, growth is a separate issue now. Growth is the most important point for the European Union economy. Without growth, we will not be able to deliver to our citizens what they expect. We will not be able to keep our social market economy. Our citizens will not be able to realise their full potential.

That is precisely the goal of EU 2020 – growth, growth and growth. Not just any kind of growth, but intelligent growth, sustainable growth and inclusive growth. Of course, we believe that to have growth we need confidence, and unless confidence comes back to the financial markets in Europe we will not be able to achieve that higher level of growth and restore the growth potential before the crisis. That is why fiscal consolidation is so important and reforms are so important, not as an end in themselves but as a means to achieve greater levels of growth to increase the growth potential in Europe.

  Syed Kamall (ECR). - I think we all agree on the need for sound economic governance. But let us be honest about what is happening. What we have seen is blatant flouting of the Stability and Growth Pact rules and engagement in what we would call, probably rather euphemistically, off-balance-sheet activities and financial engineering.

Now I am sure we can all agree that the EU Member States must adhere to the principles of sound monetary policy, fiscal responsibility and honest accounting, but do you see this as an opportunity for the EU to gain power over Member State budgets, or will you tackle the real problem of countries that have cooked the books and amassed massive budget deficits, rather than focusing on increasing power over Member State budgets?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − Speaking frankly, I am not looking at this point in terms of a fight for competence or grabbing power. That is not the problem. What we have now, and it is clear – Article 120 of the Treaty – is a situation in which the economic policy of a Member State is not just a matter of national concern. We have seen during this crisis that the decisions taken by one country have a very direct spill-over effect on the other countries. So it makes sense, for instance, that the Member States, when they are preparing their budget, know what others are doing as well, because the decisions of others will have an impact on their own decisions.

We do not want at all – and I want to make this clear – to interfere in the sovereign powers of our national parliaments. It is very important for this to be respected, but it makes sense that when we are discussing the economic policy for Europe – and we have seen how interdependent we are – we should be aware of what the main intentions of the other economies are. This is the right point. What is the added value of being together? This is the sensible line the Commission is proposing, and we believe that now a consensus is emerging along these lines.

  Enikő Győri (PPE). - Tisztelt képviselőtársaim! Az elhúzódó válság egyértelművé tette, az Uniónak nincs több elvesztegetnivaló ideje. Azonnali cselekvésre van szükség gazdaságpolitikai kérdésekben. Egyszerre három területen kell összehangoltan lépnünk, a gazdasági kormányzás, a hosszútávra szóló növekedési stratégia és a pénzügyi szolgáltatások reformja terén. Mindezt ráadásul úgy kell megtennünk, hogy közben nem feledkezünk meg arról, hogy a jól bevált közös politikák, a közös agrárpolitika és a kohéziós politika helyét megtaláljuk az új helyzetben. Belső kohézió és biztonságos élelmiszertermelés nélkül ugyanis biztosan nem lehetünk sikeresek a világban.

Mindezek fényében kérdezem a Bizottság elnökét, elkötelezett-e amellett, hogy az Európa 2020 stratégiát összhangba hozzuk a létező közös politikákkal? Illetve Ön, mint a közösségi módszer letéteményese - és azért én nagyon becsülöm is Önt - fenn kívánja-e tartani az uniós gazdaságpolitika előbb említett három területén azt az elvet, hogy minden változtatást csak az Uniót egységesen kezelve, a nem eurozóna tagországok érdekeit figyelembe véve szabad megalkotni, ügyelve arra, hogy az Unió belső kohéziója ne sérüljön.

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − You are completely right when you underline what I have been calling the holistic approach to economic policy. It is a mistake and I think now Member States are well aware of it.

When we speak about economic policy in Europe, just to consider the Stability and Growth Pact or just to consider the financial services reform, it all comes down to growth. To have sustainable growth, we need of course to have sound economic governance in Europe, we have to respect the Stability and Growth Pact, and we need the credibility of sound public finances, but we also need new regulatory supervision for the financial market and we need to invest in our potential for growth. This is precisely what EU 2020 is about. It is about reform. That is why I am insisting that we need fiscal consolidation and structural reform.

And of course we need to pursue the economic policies that are so important for us in Europe, namely in terms of economic and social cohesion – not only for 16 – or 17, because I hope that Estonia will join the euro area very soon – but for all the 27 Member States.

  Franz Obermayr (NI). - Herr Präsident, Herr Kommissionspräsident! Mit der Taskforce will Ratspräsident Van Rompuy neue Euro-Regeln im Eiltempo schaffen, um die EU aus der gegenwärtigen Euro-Krise zu manövrieren.

Nun, Herr Kommissionspräsident, Sie haben heute bereits mehrmals Artikel 121 zitiert. Sie sprachen sehr richtig von der gegenseitigen Abhängigkeit und davon, dass die Wirtschaftspolitik natürlich nicht nur den einzelnen Mitgliedstaat betrifft. Nun meine konkrete Frage an Sie, Herr Kommissionspräsident: Inwieweit werden im Rahmen der Taskforce Möglichkeiten von Sanktionen gegen Staaten, die wiederholt gegen Budgetregeln verstoßen, erarbeitet? Kann die Kommission sich den Entzug von EU-Subventionen bzw. den Entzug von Strukturförderungsmaßnahmen vorstellen? Und was hält die Kommission von einem zeitweiligen Entzug von Stimmrechten als Sanktionsmöglichkeit? Wie steht die Kommission letztlich zu Forderungen einer einheitlichen Insolvenzregelung für zahlungsunfähige Mitgliedstaaten?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − You have raised many questions. First of all, what we are doing now in the task force and indeed in the Commission – a communication on 12 May already mentioned this – is examining the possibility of reinforcing the Stability and Growth Pact, including by broadening the arsenal of incentives for compliance, as I prefer to call it.

I believe it makes sense to have these incentives for compliance – some people speak of sanctions – because we need the credibility of those instruments to ensure that the Stability and Growth Pact is respected. As we have seen, the problem was that some Member States did not respect the Treaty that they themselves had adopted and ratified.

How can we do this? We want to do it in a fair manner, not just penalising those countries that are in the Cohesion Fund. That is why we are looking for ways of implementing those incentives for compliance, irrespective of whether or not the countries are cohesion countries. Those incentives for compliance can be reinforced in several ways, for instance more upstream, including using them in the preventive part of the Pact, or more consequently, for instance with an increased degree of automaticity. We are looking at several ways and the Commission will put forward some legislative proposals on this.

  Juan Fernando López Aguilar (S&D). - Señor Presidente, señor Presidente Barroso, quiero escucharle hablar del paro, a la hora de detallar los objetivos del Grupo de trabajo sobre la gobernanza económica, porque ha referido en numerosas ocasiones la estrategia, como una estrategia para un crecimiento inteligente, sostenible e inclusivo.

Y debería ser inclusivo sobre todo para esos más de 20 millones de europeos que se sienten excluidos por haber sido expulsados del mercado de trabajo, como consecuencia de la brutal crisis. Más de 20 millones de parados que quieren concreciones cuando les decimos que la gobernanza económica, la estabilidad y la supervisión -el paquete de supervisión económica y financiera- se van a reflejar en una estrategia directamente dirigida a reincorporar al trabajo, con horizonte de mayor productividad y, por tanto, competitividad, a todas esas personas que se han visto afectadas en propia carne por el estallido de la crisis.

Y, en particular, quiero oírle decir cómo se va a reflejar en la participación de los Estados miembros de la Unión Europea que van a tomar parte en esta oportunidad, que no puede ser desperdiciada, que debe ser relevante para la definición de nuevas reglas para la gobernanza económica global, en la inminente reunión del G20 en Toronto.

  José Manuel Barroso, Presidente da Comissão. − Eu considero que é essencial o que disse o Sr. Deputado López Aguilar. De tudo isto temos de ter uma visão holística. Não podemos olhar apenas para algumas regras de governança no âmbito do Pacto de Estabilidade e Crescimento, temos de olhar também para aquilo que podemos fazer para o crescimento na Europa, sobretudo para assegurar que seja um crescimento sustentável inclusive.

Já o dissemos várias vezes: não queremos que os custos desta adaptação, deste ajustamento, sejam suportados pelos mais fracos. Não foram eles que provocaram a crise. Por isso achamos que deve haver uma melhor redistribuição dos sacrifícios e achamos também, como disse o Sr. Deputado López Aguilar, que é necessária uma dimensão externa. É por isso que vamos para o G20 com esta determinação, por exemplo, de propor mecanismos de contribuição do sector financeiro para a resposta à crise, procurando reforçar também uma posição comum da Europa no âmbito global, nomeadamente no âmbito do G20.

  Petru Constantin Luhan (PPE). - Referitor la Europa 2020 - o nouă strategie europeană pentru ocuparea forţei de muncă şi creştere economică - între obiectivele principale aprobate de Consiliul European în 25-26 martie anul acesta, se află şi cele referitoare la îmbunătăţirea condiţiilor de cercetare şi dezvoltare, în special pentru ca nivelurile combinate ale investiţiilor publice şi private în acest sector să ajungă la 3% din produsul intern brut. Tot acolo se menţionează: Comisia va elabora un indicator menit să reflecte intensitatea cercetării, dezvoltării şi inovării.

Întrebarea mea este:

Care este metodologia prin care elaboraţi acest indicator şi este stabilit deja un program de consultări în acest sens?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − You are right. We have made reference to the 3%, but we have not just mentioned research and development but also the concept of innovation, since this is not only a question of basic research but how research is translated into economic activity. What can research do to produce more growth and more employment? As you know, there is not a well-established indicator for innovation, which is a technical issue dividing some experts.

I personally have been discussing this with the OECD for instance. The Secretary-General of the OECD and some of his experts came to Brussels recently, and we are working with them and others to have an indicator of innovation that could be agreed upon by the academic community and the policy-making community. That is what we are doing, and we certainly want to do so in open consultation, so we very much welcome all contributions to this. It is a highly technical point, but I believe that it is critically important that we develop better indicators for innovation.

  Ilda Figueiredo (GUE/NGL). - Senhor Presidente, sabemos que é preocupante a evolução da situação económica e social numa parte significativa dos Estados-Membros da União Europeia. O crescimento económico continua muito débil e é insuficiente para diminuir o desemprego e para criar o emprego que a União precisa.

Por outro lado, as medidas que estão a ser tomadas, designadamente as políticas de austeridade em nome do cumprimento do Pacto de Estabilidade e dos seus critérios, não só vão em sentido contrário da necessidade de criação de emprego e de crescimento económico, como estão a agravar as desigualdades e a acentuar a pobreza e, por isso, mesmo quando estamos no Ano Europeu de Luta contra a Pobreza, nós vemos a situação da exclusão, da pobreza, de desemprego a crescer.

Então eu pergunto, Sr. Presidente, não pensa que é urgente dar prioridade, nestas políticas macroeconómicas, à sustentabilidade social, em vez de continuar a insistir na sustentabilidade financeira, pondo em risco exactamente a sustentabilidade social? Não acha que é tempo de rever o PEC e os seus critérios irracionais para dar prioridade ao emprego e à luta pela inclusão social?

  José Manuel Barroso, Presidente da Comissão. − Penso que sem sustentabilidade financeira não teremos sustentabilidade social. Porque sem sustentabilidade financeira não há confiança, sem confiança não há investimento, sem investimento não há emprego, e é por isso não se deve pôr como oposição as políticas macroeconómicas estáveis e sãs e a preocupação com os mais vulneráveis e com a pobreza.

Em relação à pobreza, nós próprios pusemos como um dos objectivos da Estratégia 2020 a luta contra a pobreza, a luta pela inclusão social, até com alguns objectivos concretos, e eu concordo que há, hoje em dia, um risco maior de pobreza nas nossas sociedades. Nós estamos a assistir a novos fenómenos de pobreza, que são extremamente preocupantes. É por isso que os governos deverão, no quadro das suas prioridades, ver como responder a essa questão mas, a solução - repito e insisto - não pode ser a indisciplina orçamental, porque se for essa a solução teremos provavelmente o agravamento das situações dos países, incluindo dos mais vulneráveis nesses mesmos países.

  John Bufton (EFD). - I wonder, can you please tell me who is really profiting from the Greek bail-out package? Is it the people of Greece, or Greece’s richest private banker, Spiro Latsis, who holds a 40% stake in the third-biggest bank in Greece, Eurobank EFG Group?

Could your friendship, sir, with Mr Latsis possibly be a conflict of interest?

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − The package put forward by Greece and the European institutions is for the benefit of the Greek people and the European economy overall. If this were not the case, it would not have been approved by the 27 Member States. Regarding the insinuation you make, I really believe that it does not deserve any kind of answer.

  Γεώργιος Παπανικολάου (PPE). - Κύριε Πρόεδρε, φαίνεται ότι η Γερμανική και η Γαλλική Κυβέρνηση συναινούν στο ότι η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση δεν έχει ανάγκη νέων θεσμών. Αυτό τουλάχιστον φάνηκε από τις δηλώσεις της κυρίας Μέρκελ και του κ. Σαρκοζί την περασμένη εβδομάδα. Ωστόσο, διαφαίνεται - όπως προαναφέρθηκε - ότι οδεύουμε σε μια νέα τροποποίηση του Συμφώνου Σταθερότητας όπου θα επιβάλλονται κυρώσεις, όπως η άρση του δικαιώματος ψήφου, σε κράτη μέλη που δεν τηρούν την πειθαρχία στο δημοσιονομικό πεδίο.

Η ερώτησή μου είναι απλή: πιστεύετε ότι το πρόβλημα διακυβέρνησης της Ευρώπης αντιμετωπίζεται και περιορίζεται σε θέματα πειθαρχίας σε ό,τι αφορά τη δημοσιονομική προσαρμογή; Ή τελικά εν μέσω κρίσης έχοντας το νομισματικό εργαλείο σε κοινοτικό επίπεδο και το δημοσιονομικό εργαλείο σε εθνικό καταλήγουμε σε αδιέξοδο;

Υπάρχουν προβλήματα τα οποία έχουμε διαπιστώσει επανειλημμένως. Μόλις χθες ο Οίκος Moody’s για μια ακόμη φορά αναιτιολόγητα υποβάθμισε την πιστοληπτική ικανότητα της Ελλάδας. Η διεύρυνση οπλοστασίου, την οποία αναφέρατε, θα μας οδηγήσει σε συγκεκριμένα, χειροπιαστά αποτελέσματα για το μέλλον;

  José Manuel Barroso, President of the Commission. − The European institutions, together with Member States, will do their best to have something that is more credible in terms of the implementation of the Stability and Growth Pact.

It is quite obvious that there were problems in terms of implementation and non-compliance by some of the Member States with the rules that they themselves had agreed.

Already now, some limitations and even sanctions are possible under the current Treaties and without new reforms.

In the future we want to have that in an objective manner. We are looking for ways of improving the credibility of the pact in a fair way, so that the measures can be implemented objectively, irrespective of the country’s status as one the richest or poorest Member States. I believe it is in the interests of all of us to have a more credible way of implementing the Stability and Growth Pact.

  President. − That concludes Question Hour with the President of the European Commission.