Rapporti verbatim tad-dibattiti

L-Erbgħa, 22 ta' Ottubru 2014 - Strasburgu

15. Ġellieda Ewropej tal-IS (dibattitu)

  Der Präsident. - Als nächster Punkt folgt die Aussprache über die Erklärungen des Rates und der Kommission zum Thema Europäische IS-Kämpfer (2014/2901(RSP)).

  Cecilia Malmström, Member of the Commission. - This is indeed a very serious phenomenon that we are debating here today. It is a serious threat to the European Union, and we saw what happened in Brussels only half a year ago when a returning foreign fighter opened fire in the Jewish Museum in Brussels and killed four people.

We need to step up our efforts to stem the flow of foreign fighters and we need to work together in the European Union.

First of all, we need to ensure better information exchanges between the Member States, notably by establishing appropriate mechanisms. One such mechanism is the passenger name record data that the Council mentioned. PNR data could be an essential tool to carry out trend pattern analyses, identifying potentially high-risk travellers. This enables the authorities to better detect those foreign fighters travelling to and from the EU by air that were previously unknown to law enforcement agencies. PNR is also a very important tool to detect traffickers and drug smugglers.

Of course, an EU PNR needs a clear legal framework and coherent data protection safeguards across the EU in line with Article 8 of the Charter, as interpreted by the European Court of Justice. EU legislation must lay down clear and precise rules governing the scope and the application of the measures, and imposing appropriate safeguards so that the persons whose PNR data has been retained have sufficient guarantees to protect their personal data against the risk of abuse and any unlawful access or use of that data. I really hope that the Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs can look at this again. As you know, Member State after Member State is developing its own PNR system, and it would be much better to have a joint system with common rules, not least when it comes to data protection.

Another strand of action is the detection of returnees from conflict zones to Europe, and therefore issues of border security and border management play a role here. The Schengen Information System (SIS) is an effective tool for the detection and disruption of suspicious travel by sharing information about foreign fighters. It allows today for specific action to be taken on the basis of alerts. The Commission is making efforts to accelerate and improve the information exchange on SIS alerts among Member States, and it is crucial that Member States use all the possibilities offered by the system today. It is also important that Member States carry out minimum checks on persons as required by the Schengen border code and systematically check the travel documents of all persons at external borders against the relevant databases.

There are voices calling for a revision of the existing framework on this, but it is important to first look at how we can use in an optimal way the existing tools and measures and make the best of them. The situation is urgent and the Commission is, of course, looking at technical discussions, but for the moment we do not plan any initiatives in this area. You must also understand that the Commission reserves its position until the next Commission is in place.

Looking forward, aviation security capacity-building in third countries is a priority. The Commission stands ready to support work in this field highlighted by the European Council in August. We will continue our work on detection technologies to make sure that our own aviation security is as strong as it has to be.

A very important strand here not to be forgotten, because it is key, is preventive work. We need to address, as the Council mentioned, terrorists’ use of the internet. We know that many of these organisations recruit via the internet. That is why we have started a dialogue with internet providers to see if we can cooperate in developing counter-narratives online and in cooperation, for instance, with returned people who can tell their stories.

As you know, we also created three years ago the radicalisation awareness network. It plays a very important role in helping local actors and Member States to improve the tools and understand the root causes of radicalisation. We have networks working in all Member States with families and victims to draft counter-narratives, to pool the research, and we are working on exit strategies and will very soon be setting up a sort of centre of excellence that will be at the disposal of Member States for all this.

At this point I would like to reiterate that security and fundamental rights are intrinsically related here. Combatting racist and xenophobic crime, intolerance, discrimination, including promoting integration and social cohesion, is a key element of EU policies. It is very important not to stigmatise any group here. We will also do everything to give priority to the enforcement of the Framework Decision on combatting racism and xenophobia by means of criminal laws.

Honourable Members, Member States are meeting a lot to discuss these issues. The Commission is trying to be helpful, creating forums for the exchange of information. We need to step up our action here to combat this dangerous phenomenon of foreign fighters. We should use the existing tools at our disposal to the maximum extent made possible by border measures and national databases. We must also facilitate and promote European action, for instance a European PNR would be important here. We need to reinforce and spread the very important preventive work that has already been going on for a couple of years. This is the only way that we can jointly address this threat.

  Agustín Díaz de Mera García Consuegra, en nombre del Grupo PPE. – Señor Presidente, en realidad en nombre del Grupo PPE hablará Monika Hohlmeier.

Saludo al Presidente en ejercicio del Consejo y a la Comisaria Cecilia Malmström, agradeciéndole el trabajo que ha hecho hasta ahora, en estos años, y deseándole muchos éxitos en el futuro.

Las violaciones graves y constantes de los derechos humanos en Irak y en Siria bajo el control del DAESH se han convertido en una clara amenaza para la seguridad internacional. Nos encontramos ante actos de extrema crueldad: mutilaciones y decapitaciones de civiles y soldados; esclavitud sexual de mujeres; reclutamiento de niños y secuestros. En suma, se dedican a generar el terror con asesinatos selectivos o masivos de civiles, ocasionando, además, desplazamientos también masivos de población: miles, millones de desplazados y de refugiados.

El reclutamiento de combatientes por parte del llamado Estado Islámico no es un hecho aislado a lo largo de la historia: los grandes conflictos internacionales con ciertos países islámicos de por medio suelen convertirse en una buena oportunidad para el reclutamiento de yihadistas. Ya ocurrió en los años ochenta con Afganistán, en los noventa con Chechenia y volvió a pasar en la década de 2000 con la guerra de Irak. Pero la gran diferencia con todos esos conflictos es que el terror generado por el DAESH va camino de superar a todos los vividos en las décadas precedentes.

Este grupo terrorista recluta a sus miembros mediante un estudiado y prolongado trabajo de captación a través de las redes sociales, que comenzó incluso antes del estallido del conflicto sirio. Nos encontramos ante una grave amenaza que aumenta día a día. El número de combatientes europeos se estima en 3 000, entre los cuales hay 300 belgas, 700 franceses, 500 del Reino Unido, 51 de España.

Es preciso reconocer, Señorías, que el regreso de estos combatientes a Europa tras haber participado en conflictos armados y haber recibido entrenamiento militar supone una gravísima amenaza para nuestra seguridad. Por ello, la Unión debe hacer frente y debe plantar cara, sin ambages, a este gran reto. Y como ya he dicho en multitud de ocasiones ante esta Cámara, la mejor herramienta para combatirlos es la prevención y la acción de los servicios de inteligencia. Sí, decididamente vamos a apoyar el PNR europeo.

Presidente en ejercicio del Consejo y Comisaria Malmström, es anacrónico y es inútil que haya trece PNR financiados por la Comisión o que países como Francia o como el Reino Unido tengan su PNR. Yo voy a apoyar la iniciativa de Timothy Kirkhope y voy a hacer todo lo que pueda por desbloquear algo que permanece muerto, tristemente muerto, desde el mes de abril del año 2013.

De modo que sí al PNR europeo; sí no solamente a detectar a los que regresan, sino también a detectar a los que salen o pretenden salir. Sí a las alertas del SID y sí también a incentivar y a propiciar mayor seguridad aérea.

  Birgit Sippel, im Namen der S&D-Fraktion. – Herr Präsident! Ich will gleich eine Bemerkung voranstellen. Das, was Rat und Kommission hier vorgestellt haben, wird nicht dazu beitragen, das Morden in Syrien zu beenden. Mein Vorredner hat es gesagt: Es geht um eine mögliche erhöhte Sicherheit in Europa, um nicht mehr und nicht weniger. Gleichwohl natürlich dürfen wir die Gefahr, die von gewaltbereiten Personen und ihren Unterstützern und ihren Unterstützerinnen ausgeht, nicht unterschätzen. Doch die Menschen müssen darauf vertrauen können, dass alle Maßnahmen, die wir ergreifen, auf Achtung europäischer Grundrechte beruhen.

Extremismus ist nicht christlich, jüdisch oder muslimisch. Es geht um Macht, es geht um die Absage an unsere gemeinsamen europäischen Werte, an unsere demokratischen Systeme. Diese müssen wir verteidigen und schützen. Die Überwachung verdächtiger Personen ist legitim, aber Menschen dürfen nicht zu Verdächtigen werden, nur weil sie einer bestimmten Religion oder ethnischen Gruppe angehören. Das verschleiert den Blick auf andere Möglichkeiten. Ich denke etwa an den nationalsozialistischen Untergrund in Deutschland, dessen Mitglieder jahrelang ungestört morden konnten, weil man bestimmte Kriterien außen vor gelassen hat, obwohl es Hinweise gab.

Die derzeit diskutierte Idee des Entzugs von Reisedokumenten ist nicht nur wegen der Freizügigkeit kritisch. Noch schlimmer ist die Ausstellung eines Ersatzpersonalausweises. Damit werden Menschen stigmatisiert, ohne einer Straftat beschuldigt oder vor Gericht gestellt zu werden.

Und schließlich, was stimmt eigentlich nicht in unseren Gesellschaften, wenn junge Menschen, wenn unsere Bürger sich scheinbar zunehmend radikalisieren und von unseren demokratischen Systemen abwenden, obwohl viele eine gute Zukunftsperspektive haben? Wenn wir auf diese Frage keine Antworten finden, werden wir den Kampf gegen Radikalisierungen in Europa verlieren.

  Timothy Kirkhope, on behalf of the ECR Group. – Mr President, European citizens are being radicalised. They are travelling to Syria and then they are being trained, with possible motives of one day returning to our cities and streets to harm and kill us. They want to replace a Europe of freedom and peace with fear and destruction. They call themselves the Islamic State but they do not represent the Muslim faith. They are criminals and terrorists and I believe that we should refer to them as such. There is no place for this in Europe. We have dealt with such behaviour before and we will do it again by working with our communities and our young people and addressing the problems at their source. The words condemnation and education are not enough.

Leaders of the European Council, the UN Security Council and the airlines all want an EU passenger name records agreement in order for law enforcement authorities to capture EU foreign fighters and address the chaotic information exchange system that they currently face. A patchwork of 14 different PNR systems not only leaves gaps in security for terrorists to exploit, but it leaves gaps in our data protection for travellers. The issue of PNR is often presented in a polarised way, but I believe you can protect the civil liberties of the individual while protecting the safety of us all.

I urge Members to look at this agreement again. As rapporteur I would like to assure you that I will make sure we hold ourselves to the highest possible standards and put in place the toughest data protection rules we can. We must never compromise Europe’s hard fought-for civil liberties. It is also our primary duty as politicians to protect those who have elected us and to deal with and bring to justice those who seek to do us harm.

  Jozo Radoš, u ime kluba ALDE. – Gospodine predsjedniče, ocjena stručnjaka i nadležnih institucija je da opasnost koja Europskoj uniji prijeti je velika, a jednako tako sposobnosti obrane od te opasnosti su vrlo male i prema tim ocjenama jedan od razloga je nedovoljna suradnja država i institucija u borbi protiv ovoga fenomena i nije se trebao dogoditi ovaj fenomen da bi se suradnja država i institucija na sigurnosnom području razvijala.

Bilo je ovdje govora o tome da je potrebno preventivno djelovanje u strategiji borbe protiv radikalizma Europskog vijeća spominje se potreba edukacije obrazovnih institucija, socijalnih i zdravstvenih službi, vjerskih zajednica da bi se borile protiv ovoga problema. Naravno, lako je to reći, taj je posao vrlo kompliciran, sama edukacija dugo traje i provedba onoga što je naučeno i vještine koje su naučene još duže.

Ali još je važnije od toga stvaranje uvjeta u kojima se radikalizam neće događati. Radikalizam svake vrste se događa u uvjetima socijalne isključenosti i pogotovo siromaštva u ovim zadnjim godinama gospodarske krize. I zato je ključno pitanje kako iskorijeniti uvjete u kojima se razvija i ova vrsta radikalizma, ali i svaki drugi radikalizam te stoga podsjećam da su prije desetak godina europski lideri rekli da nisu uspjeli integrirati imigrante u svoje države, čak ni one koji godinama odnosno više generacija žive u tim državama, a mislim da današnja situacija nije ništa bolja u odnosu na tih zadnjih deset godina i stoga pozivam Vijeće, Komisiju i Parlament da porade na tome da se u Europi stvore uvjeti socijalne uključenosti te iskorijeni siromaštvo koje je jedno od uvjeta i plodnoga tla za rast radikalizma.

  Σοφία Σακοράφα, εξ ονόματος της ομάδας GUE/NGL. – Κύριε Πρόεδρε, σήμερα βλέπουμε τον πατέρα του Φρανκενστάιν να αναρωτιέται γιατί αυτό που έφτιαξε είναι ένα τέρας. Αλήθεια, πόσο πιο χυδαία πρέπει να γίνει η πολιτική που ακολουθείτε για να αναγκαστείτε να τη συνδέσετε ευθέως με τα αποτελέσματά της; Είκοσι χρόνια τώρα, με διάφορες ευφάνταστες αιτιάσεις, εσείς και οι σύμμαχοι σας βομβαρδίζετε όλο τον πλανήτη με πυρηνικά και χημικά, σκοτώνοντας χιλιάδες αμάχους που προσβλητικά ονομάζετε παράπλευρες απώλειες.

Πετάτε στα σκουπίδια δημοκρατικούς θεσμούς, καθαιρείτε εκλεγμένες κυβερνήσεις, απειλείτε λαούς και φτωχοποιείτε έθνη.

Και όλα αυτά για να γιγαντώνουν τα κέρδη τους οι 7 ή οι 17 αδερφές.

Και απορείτε γιατί γεννήθηκαν οι Ταλιμπάν, η Αλ Κάιντα, και σήμερα το Ισλαμικό Κράτος. Απορείτε γιατί δίπλα σας κάθονται ακροδεξιοί και αντιευρωπαϊστές. Απορείτε γιατί Ευρωπαίοι πολίτες πάνε με τους βαρβάρους απαρνούμενοι αυτό τον όγκο πολιτισμού που παράγετε. Μην απορείτε. Οι πολιτικές σας είναι ο κύριος γεννήτορας όλων αυτών των τεράτων. Η μόνη ελπίδα είναι οι αγώνες των λαών και η μόνη λύση είναι η ανατροπή σας.

  Alyn Smith, on behalf of the Verts/ALE Group. – Mr President, I very much endorse the comments of Ms Sippel and I would add that winning safety at home will be impossible unless we win the argument abroad. In our dealings with ISIS, above all else we must win the moral argument and understand that ISIS, so recently formed as an entity – such as it is – is not a thing in itself: it is a symptom of a wider problem partly brought about by our actions in the Middle East.

The roots to this go deep. Having grown up in the region myself, I am slightly familiar with it. The very existence of many of the states we are dealing with goes back to the historic actions of a number of our Member States, not least my own. Even in today’s New York Times a foreign fighter is quoted as saying ‘ISIS is the divine vehicle that will dismantle the European borders drawn by Britain and France at the end of World War I’. This goes back a very long way, and unless we comprehend the causes, and also much else – and I disagree that a massive security infrastructure at home is the solution when the causes are deeply rooted elsewhere – that disjoint in our values, because we are not seen as being impartial, is exploited by recruiters in highlighting our selective and partial application of our own much-vaunted values in our dealings with the region.

Even now we see that, while some rightly condemn the barbarism of ISIS, we are rather quieter in condemning similar actions by a number of our allies. Even today in Syria we are seeing air strikes rightly targeting ISIS, but leaving Syrian forces free to attack the civilian population. We might win a battle but we are not winning hearts and minds, and until we do so we are not actually going to tackle the real problem.

  Amjad Bashir, on behalf of the EFDD Group. – It is a sad fact that hundreds of men and women have been radicalised enough to leave the UK and fight for ISIS. Many a family has been left heartbroken and devastated in my country and in Europe. Our interfering has destabilised the whole region and dramatically changed lives. Since the Iraq war our reputation lies in tatters. Previous to the invasion, Iraq did not have al-Qaeda or ISIS. Libya lies completely broken. There are already enough combatants and our involvement will encourage further radicalisation and fundamentalism, not least because air strikes will lead to innocent civilian deaths.

We must not be seen as those leading a new crusade in Muslim lands. To prevent this from happening I am holding a conference in London on 5 December on the radicalisation of the youth. The chief guest will be the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shawki Ibrahim Allam, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. We must find a solution and we must act now.

  Bruno Gollnisch (NI). - Monsieur le Président, Mesdames et Messieurs de la majorité, ces combattants islamistes sont vos créatures. Ils sont les résultats de votre complaisance, de vos carences et de vos incohérences.

Ils sont d'abord le résultat de votre complaisance face à la politique d'immigration massive, qui a fait venir et naturaliser en Europe des millions de déracinés. Beaucoup sont d'origine musulmane et, pour certains, l'extrémisme religieux est aujourd'hui un facteur de cohésion, d'affirmation et de revanche.

Ils sont aussi le résultat de votre carence terrifiante sur le plan spirituel en dépit de la présence d'un immense groupe soi-disant démocrate-chrétien, carence dont un exemple nous est donné encore ici avec l'exposition d'un tableau hideux et offensant pour le Christ souffrant et sa mère. Comment pouvons-nous reprocher à ces déracinés de trouver leur idéal religieux dans le sacrifice qui leur est proposé plutôt que dans nos valeurs et dans nos traditions, que vous détruisez méthodiquement?

Enfin, ils sont le résultat de votre incohérence politique et stratégique. Plusieurs États européens, dont le mien, ont provoqué, comme en Libye ou en Iraq, encouragé, comme en Syrie, la lutte contre des régimes légaux, certes autoritaires mais tolérants sur le plan religieux. Comment pouvons-nous, par exemple, aujourd'hui, traiter ces jeunes gens de terroristes parce qu'ils sont venus se battre contre un régime que nous étions en Syrie, nous-mêmes, sur le point de frapper?

Les choses étant ce qu'elles sont, ce n'est pas tant à les empêcher de partir qu'il faut consacrer vos efforts, c'est à les empêcher de revenir. Les étrangers partis au Proche-Orient pour se mettre au service de cette barbarie ne doivent pas être admis à revenir. Les binationaux doivent être déchus de leur nationalité européenne et se voir aussi refuser la réadmission dans nos États. Ce sera beaucoup plus efficace que les mesures cosmétiques que vous vous apprêtez peut-être à prendre.

  Monika Hohlmeier (PPE). - Herr Präsident, liebe Frau Kommissarin, liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen! Zum Teil bin ich ein wenig entsetzt darüber, wie hier unter uns Kollegen über den Kampf gegen IS-Kämpfer gesprochen wird. Ich stelle mir manchmal die Frage: Muss erst einmal etwas in Europa passieren, bevor wir reagieren? Oder ist es vielleicht klug, sich auf einen vernünftigen, maßvollen Katalog zu verständigen, der nicht automatisiert davon ausgeht, dass man unverdächtigen Personen den Reisepass abnimmt?

Wenn ein Reisepass oder ein Reisedokument abgenommen wird, dann müssen dahinter sehr klare Kriterien stehen, dass jemand entsprechend nach Syrien ausreisen möchte aus entsprechenden sehr verdächtigen Kreisen stammt und entsprechend potenziell auch schon aufgetreten ist als Salafist oder als jemand, der sich als sehr gewaltbereit gezeigt hat.

Ich möchte nicht, dass wir uns im Nachhinein die Frage stellen, was wir hätten tun können, sondern die Aufgabe, die wir haben, ist, Verbrechen abzuwehren und entsprechend auch dafür Sorge zu tragen, Schwerverbrecher, wenn sie in die Europäische Union zurückkommen, dingfest zu machen, ihnen das Handwerk zu legen und ihnen keinerlei Möglichkeiten zu geben, sich in der Europäischen Union auszubreiten.

Dass ich darin übereinstimme, dass wir potenziell auch darüber nachdenken müssen – nicht nur potenziell –, wie es entstehen kann, dass eine kleine, radikale Menschengruppe sich auf den Weg macht, das ist richtig. Aber zu sagen, dass die Jugendlichen Europas sich auf den Weg machen, ist sicherlich falsch. Sondern es ist Gott sei Dank eine sehr kleine, aber eine äußerst brutale, eine entsetzliche, eine folternde, mordende und vergewaltigende Truppe.

Diese zu verharmlosen beziehungsweise Maßnahmen deshalb nicht ins Kalkül zu ziehen, halte ich für falsch. Ein bisschen Übersicht müssen wir bewahren, das ist notwendig. Deswegen ist auch verstärkte Vorsicht an den Grenzen notwendig sowie auch ein Katalog von Maßnahmen zu ergreifen, bei dem wir die Chance haben, Verbrechen an der eigenen Bevölkerung zu verhindern.

  Josef Weidenholzer (S&D). - Herr Präsident, Frau Kommissarin! Ich glaube, wir sind uns einig, dass wir alles tun müssen, um dieses Monster mit allen uns zur Verfügung stehenden Mitteln zu bekämpfen. Dabei dürfen wir aber nicht der Illusion verfallen, man könne mit ein paar gezielten Luftoperationen dieser Kräfte Herr werden. Auch die immer wieder als Allheilmittel gepriesene Verschärfung von Grenzkontrollen wird das Problem nur teilweise lösen, weil es sich bei IS eben nicht um wildgewordene Individuen handelt, sondern um eine verbrecherische, ideologisch verblendende Organisation, über die wir viel zu wenig wissen – über die Motive, die Verflechtungen und ihre Verankerung in bestimmten Milieus.

Um einen so bedrohlichen Feind zu besiegen, brauchen wir detaillierte Kenntnisse. Den Nachrichtendiensten, die oft über eine Überfülle an Informationen über einfache Bürgerinnen und Bürger verfügen blieb der bedrohliche Charakter von IS bis vor kurzem weitgehend verborgen. Wir müssen auch mit Bedauern zur Kenntnis nehmen, dass sich unsere Verbündeten in der Region oft nicht eindeutig und nicht deutlich genug von diesen erklärten Feinden der Demokratie abgrenzen. Dies ist mit aller Deutlichkeit einzufordern, und es darf, aus welchen Gründen auch immer, kein taktisches Spiel mit IS geben.

Vor allem aber geht es darum, nachhaltig zu verhindern, dass IS einen beträchtlichen Teil seiner kriminellen Aktivisten im Westen rekrutiert. Wir dürfen nicht zulassen, dass junge Männer und Frauen aus unseren Städten mit primitiver Propaganda angeworben werden. Wir müssen zusammen mit den Verantwortlichen der muslimischen Gemeinden in unseren Mitgliedstaaten dafür kämpfen, dass diese Milieus ausgetrocknet werden – mit Leidenschaft und mit Empathie, und nicht dadurch, dass wir diese Menschen ausgrenzen. Es gibt bereits eine Reihe von Mitgliedstaaten, wo solche Präventionsarbeit Erfolge zeigt. Der Kampf gegen IS ist ein umfassender, und er benötigt das gesamte Arsenal unserer Aufmerksamkeit.

  Jussi Halla-aho (ECR). - Mr President, people who join ISIS, or blow up buses and trains in Europe for that matter, are not generally uneducated, unemployed victims of discrimination. They are people driven by ideology and faith. We must pay attention to what contributes to the radicalisation of second-generation Muslim immigrants in Europe.

It has been revealed in recent years in several European countries that Muslim fundamentalists have infiltrated or taken over public schools, mosques and immigrant organisations and used them for preaching jihad, hatred and violence. Muslim clerics who are banned even in Islamic countries are free to operate and preach in Europe.

This low-intensity jihadism is one contributing factor in radicalisation, and it seems clear that our tolerance and cultural relativism are being abused in a very cynical manner.

  Ignazio Corrao (EFDD). - Signor Presidente, onorevoli colleghi, dall'ultimo rapporto di Amnesty International emergono ulteriori contorni inquietanti dell'aberrante attività terroristica portata avanti dallo Stato islamico, il movimento jihadista che purtroppo al momento sembra anche attirare troppi volontari stranieri.

Sconvolgente ad esempio il dato per circa 3 000 combattenti arruolati tra le file dell'ISIS sono europei. Ciò è forse dovuto dal fatto che l'ISIS si considera uno Stato e non un movimento. Una manipolata e corrotta idea di Stato che vuole distruggere gli Stati che in realtà esistono. Va chiarito infatti che l'ISIS non è uno Stato, non c'è l'elemento personale, quello spaziale e neanche quello organizzativo. L'ISIS non ha popolo, non ha territorio e non ha sovranità. L'ISIS è solo una macchina di morte, di terrore ma anche di propaganda. Pubblica video su Internet in stile hollywoodiano e attrae giovani europei fin troppo facilmente influenzabili. Va stigmatizzato e fermato anche questo.

L'Europa deve impegnarsi perché quando gli obiettivi locali saranno raggiunti, i terroristi sposteranno l'azione qui da noi. Gli jihadisti hanno tutto il tempo che vogliono, in quanto ragionano in termini di generazioni.

  Γεώργιος Επιτήδειος (NI). - Κύριε Πρόεδρε, παρακολουθούμε όλοι με φρίκη και αγανάκτηση, καταδικάζουμε και καλά κάνουμε, το πρωτοφανές φαινόμενο να μάχονται στο πλευρό των τζιχαντιστών νέοι από ευρωπαϊκές χώρες και να διαπράττουν μάλιστα εγκλήματα τα οποία δεν έχουν σχέση ούτε με τον πολιτισμό ούτε με τα ήθη και τα έθιμα της Ευρώπης. Πόσοι όμως από εμάς έχουμε αναρωτηθεί γιατί παρουσιάζεται αυτή η συμπεριφορά. Είναι γεγονός ότι οι νέοι της Ευρώπης δεν μεγαλώνουν πλέον με τις αρχές και τις αξίες εκείνες που δημιούργησαν τον Ευρωπαϊκό πολιτισμό.

Το να αγαπάς την πατρίδα σου θεωρείται εθνικισμός και φασισμός. Το να αρνείσαι την εισβολή στην χώρα σου, και στην Ευρώπη, εκατοντάδων χιλιάδων λαθρομεταναστών με διαφορετικές πολιτισμικές καταβολές από τρίτες χώρες, θεωρείται ρατσισμός. Και όμως η πλειοψηφία των νέων ευρωπαίων που μάχονται στο πλευρό των τζιχαντιστών είναι μουσουλμάνοι μετανάστες δεύτερης και τρίτης γενεάς, οι οποίοι έχουν επηρεαστεί απ' την ισλαμιστική προπαγάνδα. Εάν λοιπόν δεν απαλλαγούμε αμέσως από όλες αυτές τις ανόητες δεσμεύσεις, τους δισταγμούς και τα συμπλέγματα, τότε δεν πρόκειται να λύσουμε το πρόβλημα, όσα κατασταλτικά μέτρα κι να λάβουμε.

  Frank Engel (PPE). - Monsieur le Président, il ne fait aucun doute que le phénomène que nous appelons l'"État islamique" est un phénomène qui va simplement à l'encontre de toutes nos convictions. C'est un phénomène meurtrier, qui ne respecte rien sauf son idéologie bornée et perverse et qui s'oppose au modèle de civilisation qui est le nôtre.

Dès lors, pour combattre ceux qui partent soutenir l'EI– et pour combattre ce phénomène –, je ne crois pas que nous devions commencer une nouvelle fois par nous excuser des lacunes de nos sociétés, d'une tolérance et d'une compréhension insuffisantes et de jeunes désœuvrés qui auraient besoin d'autres modèles, valeurs et orientations.

Je crois qu'il faut regarder la vérité en face, à savoir que beaucoup de pays, soi-disant alliés de l'Union européenne, ont soutenu, autour de nous et depuis des décennies, et qui ne cessent de soutenir tous ceux qui détruisent et tous ceux également qui projettent de nous détruire de l'intérieur.

Je ne suis pas d'accord avec le collègue Gollnisch et d'autres, qui veulent se focaliser sur le non-retour. Personnellement, je voudrais mettre l'accent sur le non-départ, sur les raisons des départs et sur leur organisation, parce que ce ne sont pas des jeunes qui partent d'Europe avec des voyagistes qui leur vendent des vacances à forfait en Syrie. Ces voyages sont organisés par des alliés de l'Europe, comme le Qatar, et d'autres pays qui ne cessent de nier leur implication dans la logique destructrice qui commence à nous entourer et qui, en fin du compte, pourrait très bien avoir raison de nous. Il faut regarder les véritables adversaires en face.

  Ana Gomes (S&D). - O recrutamento de jihadistas europeus a combaterem em nome do chamado Estado Islâmico, que não é Estado, nem é Islâmico, ou de outras organizações terroristas, mostra que os desafios à nossa segurança e à segurança global dependem da resolução de conflitos na vizinhança, em particular no Médio Oriente, e mostra como precisamos de uma política de segurança e de defesa inteligente e estratégica que integre as dimensões externa e interna.

Os jihadistas que regressam à Europa ou os que possam ainda ser interceptados por cá só podem ter tratamento no respeito pelos princípios dos estados de direito, que somos, e especificamente no quadro do Direito Penal, sendo levados à justiça, punidos e depois, se for caso disso, ajudados a reintegrar-se socialmente.

Retirar-lhes passaportes ou a nacionalidade, como alguns erradamente advogam, não só não resolverá o problema como o poderá agravar e exportar para a vizinhança. É preciso aprendermos com os erros do passado na luta antiterrorista. Ela não será eficaz e não nos distinguirá dos terroristas se não for levada a cabo no estrito respeito pelos direitos humanos fundamentais.

Os ditos foreign fighters não são estrangeiros, são de facto europeus. É preciso compreendermos e combatermos os contextos de discriminação social, desemprego, intolerância religiosa e outras formas de alienação que os predispõem a ser recrutados.

Face à ameaça real que representam para europeus e para outros povos, é necessário que a União Europeia concerte uma estratégia que implique meios substantivos para coordenar os contributos dos serviços de inteligência mas também das autoridades policiais, judiciais, serviços sociais, agentes educativos, comunitários, para programas de prevenção da radicalização e de desradicalização.

O facto de estarmos confrontados com jihadistas europeus também reforça a nossa responsabilidade de pôr em prática uma política externa comum eficaz, que efetivamente resolva ou ajude a resolver conflitos, refletindo a abordagem holística de que tanto falamos mas pouco passamos à prática, do Iraque à Síria, passando pela Palestina, a Líbia, olhando para o resto de África, norte de África e além dela, e sem esquecer países ditos nossos aliados, como a Arábia Saudita e o Qatar, que vêm financiando e fornecendo os meios para o recrutamento de jovens pelo mundo inteiro para redes terroristas.

PRESIDENZA DELL'ON. DAVID-MARIA SASSOLI
Vicepresidente

  Anders Primdahl Vistisen (ECR). - Hr. formand! De fundamentalistiske islamister i Islamisk Stat udgør en kæmpe trussel! Ikke kun for de mennesker, der er så uheldige at være fanget i den frygtelige situation, der er i Irak og Syrien, men også i Europa. Alene fra Danmark alene estimerer man, at over 100 islamister er taget til Syrien for at kæmpe for denne terrororganisation, der står bag frygtelige forbrydelser. Hvad kan vi forvente os, når disse mennesker på den ene eller den anden måde ønsker at returnere til Europa? Det, jeg frygter, vi kan forvente, er en stor terrortrussel, som kan ramme os alle. Hvornår ved vi ikke, men potentialet er der. Derfor er det super vigtigt, at vi har kontrol med hvem, der kommer ind i vores lande. Desværre er den eksterne grænsekontrol, der skulle sikre Schengen, brudt sammen. Vi ser Italien, der for en stor dels vedkommende ikke engang registrerer de illegale indvandrere, der kommer ind i landet. Og derfor må vi nu, indtil truslen fra IS er bekæmpet, kræve, at de nationale stater for lov til at gennemføre grænsekontrol, så vi har et effektiv våben mod terrorisme.

  Udo Voigt (NI). - Herr Präsident! 12 000 Kämpfer aus 74 Staaten kämpfen und töten in Syrien und im Irak. Wie viele davon tatsächlich aus Europa kommen, wissen wir nicht. Wie viele davon die doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft haben, wissen wir nicht. Sie sind brutal, morden und vergewaltigen, und nach neuesten Pressemeldungen sogar als verkleidete Kurden. Sie stellen eine nachhaltige Bedrohung dar, eine Bedrohung mit europäischen Pässen. Da hilft auch nicht – Frau Sippel –, danach zu fragen: „Wie konnte es geschehen?“

Es sind die missratenen Produkte einer multikulturellen Gesellschaft, die wir, die für die Identität der Völker stehen, so nicht wollten. Wie lange noch sollen sie die doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft behalten? Wie lange noch sollen sie Rechte daraus ableiten können? Und letztlich noch die Frage: Welche Maßnahmen, welchen Schutz ergreifen wir, um zu verhindern, dass diese Ausgereisten dann Tag für Tag als Flüchtlinge, als Asylsuchende nach Europa zurückkommen, um uns hier zu bedrohen?

  Heinz K. Becker (PPE). - Herr Präsident, Frau Kommissarin, Vertreter des Rates! Unser Wahlspruch der Union „In Vielfalt geeint“ betrifft und beinhaltet ein Credo für nationale, ethnische und religiöse Toleranz und Vielfalt in Europa. Das ist auch ein Kampfauftrag für uns in Europa, ein Kampfauftrag gegen den Fundamentalismus und speziell den islamistischen Fundamentalismus. Denn hier liegen ja die Ursachen dafür, dass wir heute begründet davon ausgehen können, dass rund 3 000 Personen mit europäischen Pässen im Irak und in Syrien brutal und hasserfüllt gegen Freiheit, Toleranz und Vielfalt kämpfen. Ganz konkret ist das sicherheitspolitisch eine enorme Herausforderung, und zwar heute, jetzt, nicht erst morgen, zum Schutz unserer Bürger, unserer Familien in Europa!

Wenn nur 10 % dieser 3 000 Europäer zurückkehren, dann haben wir Hunderte als tickende Zeitbomben hier unter uns. Die IS wirbt bereits sogar damit, dass Terrorakte dieser Kämpfer bei ihnen islamischen Ruhm und Ehre bringen. Hier bei uns!

Ich begrüße ausdrücklich den Beschluss der EU-Innenminister, mit verstärkten Sicherheitsscreenings unsere Außengrenzen effektiv zu schützen. Das Grundrecht, Sicherheit bestmöglich zu erhalten, fordert ein Vorantreiben von EU-Sicherheitsinitiativen wie der gezielten Auswertung von Fluggastdaten. Der Terrorist, der den Anschlag im Jüdischen Museum in Brüssel begangen hat, ist aus Frankreich über die Türkei ins IS-Gebiet gereist und über die Türkei und Frankfurt nach Europa.

Hier muss auch unser Koalitionspartner Bewegung zeigen, unser Koalitionspartner in der neuen Kommission. Denn entschlossenes und konkretes Handeln ist unsere Verantwortung. Verhindern wir die Rekrutierung von Europäern hier bei uns! Ja, aber vernachlässigen wir keinesfalls den Außenschutz der Grenzen Europas, denn das ist Wahlhilfe für die Populisten, die dann bei Wahlen viele Stimmen gewinnen.

  Afzal Khan (S&D). - Mr President, we have witnessed a surge of young people travelling to join ISIS, many of whom are born and raised in European countries. We must ask why these young people are joining ISIS’s ranks. Some feel targeted and isolated, do not feel understood or valued either by their own communities or by mainstream society. Groups like ISIS can still fill this void by spreading their false narrative using social media tools that young people communicate through, creating a false impression that they are joining a fight for a good cause against oppressive regimes. The current approach of asking families to turn in their own children has failed. Families are lost; we need to help them re-connect with their children through better communication. ISIS is only Islamic in name and not in its actions. We all have our role to play in exposing their false message. The mosques must play their part in achieving this by standing up against ISIS and reaching out more to engage young people. Media must stop its biased coverage, which further devises extreme reactions, and replace it with an alternative, fair account of what the Islamic faith really is. Accounts of Europeans who have faced ISIS atrocities could help build their alternative narrative. It is important that the Middle East countries have joined the coalition in fighting against ISIS. We also need to increase security measures to prevent Europeans travelling to join ISIS. The EU must coordinate achieving these goals and share best practices. It is not enough to merely legislate against these youths, we must win the war too. The war is not led by the West against Muslims, it is the whole world against ISIS.

  Louis Aliot (NI). - Monsieur le Président, nous sommes des États européens de culture gréco-latine et de religion judéo-chrétienne. Nous sommes aussi un continent qui a accueilli une immigration qui s'est peu ou prou assimilée au départ et qui, aujourd'hui, est en pleine voie d'assimilation négative, avec pour conséquences ce que nous vivons aujourd'hui.

Pourtant, même la Cour européenne des droits de l'homme l'avait relevé, les références explicites à l'instauration de la charia sont incompatibles avec nos valeurs. Or, dans nos quartiers, dans nos campagnes, aujourd'hui, beaucoup de prédicateurs prônent justement cette loi islamique radicale sans que nos responsables politiques aient pris la mesure de ce danger. C'est pour cette raison, d'ailleurs, qu'on nous a qualifiés, nous, Front national, en France, de parti islamophobe, alors que nous étions simplement un parti de vigilance démocratique islamo-critique, de même que nous pouvons, je pense, critiquer toutes les religions.

Si nous ne mettons pas fin à la double nationalité, si nous ne supprimons pas les accords de Schengen, si nous ne mettons pas sous vigilance sévère des États comme le Qatar et l'Arabie saoudite, et si nous ne suivons pas ou plus les États-Unis en toutes circonstances dans les conflits extérieurs, je pense que nous aurons un avenir sombre pour nos États et notre continent.

  Davor Ivo Stier (PPE). - Gospodine predsjedniče, s jedne strane tisuće i tisuće ljudi žele useliti u Europsku uniju i ovdje ostvariti snove slobode i materijalnog prosperiteta. S druge strane mladi ljudi koji su rođeni u Europi regrutiraju se kao borci za terorističku organizaciju koja se bori protiv samih europskih vrijednosti.

To na prvi pogled izgleda kao paradoksalna situacija. Mislim da su jedni i drugi zapravo gladni - jedni su gladni slobode i materijalnog prosperiteta, a ovi drugi su gladni ideala. Znam neki će reći da su europski borci Islamske države žrtve možda diskriminacije, neimaštine - to sasvim sigurno pomaže u njihovom regrutiranju. Međutim, oni ne idu u Islamsku državu da bi riješili svoje materijalne probleme, nego, evo vidite, što je Bilal Bosnić vođa vehabijskog pokreta u Bosni i Hercegovini koji je regrutirao preko 100 boraca, rekao: „Vjerujemo da će jednoga dana cijeli svijet biti Islamska država.” Dakle, ti iskrivljeni ideali, taj fanatizam je ono što je njega vodilo u ovu bitku. Tko je njemu i ostalima to usadio?

Mislim da osim ovih pitanja poslova obavještajne zajednice, sigurnosne mjere, koje su naravno potrebne, moramo isto tako odgovoriti na određena vanjskopolitička pitanja. Dakle, moramo si postaviti pitanje znamo li što je sve Saudijska Arabija financirala u Bosni i Hercegovini, na samoj granici s Europskom unijom. Mislim da je to legitimno i važno pitanje. Naravno moramo jačati i naše politike integracije, ali tu vjerski identiteti nisu problemi - u Hrvatskoj, kršćanskoj ili većinski kršćanskoj zemlji, islamska je zajednica dobro integrirana. Nekada je veći problem postmoderna bahatost koja svako javno iskazivanje vjere smatra retrogradnim. Ali ono što je najbitnije: moramo jačati privrženost našim europskim vrijednostima tolerancije, vrijednostima za koje se moramo zalagati ukoliko ne želimo da mladi odu u svaki ekstremizam od populizma do, nažalost, ovog puta koji vodi prema Islamskoj državi.

  Tomáš Zdechovský (PPE). - Pane předsedající, paní komisařko, zaznělo tady hodně věcí, ale možná bych rád upřesnil jednu informaci, kterou mám ze včerejšího dne od lidí pracujících v oblasti bezpečnosti. Za IS už nebojuje pouze tři tisíce lidí, ale tři a půl tisíce. To jsou všechno občané EU a já se ptám: Nezanedbali jsme prevenci?

Možná, že vyhrajeme válku v Iráku nebo v Sýrii. Možná, že porazíme IS, ale ten problém tady byl a nezmění se. My se musíme zaměřit na prevenci, musíme opravdu vtáhnout současný islám do diskuse a musíme se bavit, co a jak dál.

Válečné zločiny, dámy a pánové, to nejsou válečné zločiny, které známe z druhé nebo z první světové války. To jsou obrázky současnosti, kde jsou lidi popravováni pouze za podezření, že spolupracují s tou či onou stranou. Podřezávání hlav, masové střílení, střílení křesťanů. I dnes tito lidé mají na rukou více než pět tisíc obětí. A to u řady obětí dnes ani nemůžeme dokázat, co se s těmito lidmi stalo. Jsou to zločiny, které opravdu jsou velmi kruté. A já chci zakončit tuto řeč jedním slovem, dámy a pánové, není to jenom o tvrdém postihu, je to o prevenci. Prevence a diskuse s lidmi, kteří chtějí žít v Evropě a chtějí nám pomoci budovat silnou a prosperující Evropu. To musí být náš úkol.

  Jeroen Lenaers (PPE). - Dank u, Voorzitter. Dank ook aan mevrouw Malmström voor haar aanwezigheid hier. We hebben in de vorige drie debatten haar collega Ashton node gemist. Ik dank u zeer voor het respect dat u wél aan het Parlement toont door hier aanwezig te zijn en deze belangrijke zaken met ons te bespreken.

We hebben vlak vóór het zomerreces een resolutie aangenomen die de urgentie aangaf waarmee de strijd tegen IS in Irak en Syrië moet worden aangegaan. Sinds we die resolutie aangenomen hebben, zijn er meer dan duizend jihadstrijders vanuit Europa vertrokken naar Syrië en Irak. We moeten een gecoördineerde Europese aanpak hebben om dit probleem aan te pakken. Zoals Jean-Claude Juncker vanochtend terecht zei in zijn speech: IS is een vijand van de waarden van Europa en IS is een vijand van alles waar Europa voor staat.

In de Raad van 2013 werden vier prioriteiten aangenomen voor zo'n gecoördineerde aanpak: preventie, informatie-uitwisseling, strafrecht en samenwerking met derde landen. Ik vraag me nu af: hoe ver staat het met die aanpak en zijn er al concrete resultaten bereikt?

Een specifieke vraag die ik wil stellen gaat over het focal point for travellers van Europol. Het doel hiervan is de uitwisseling en analyse van informatie over verdachte personen die wellicht willen uitreizen. Zijn alle landen inmiddels actief in dit netwerk? Zo niet, bent u van mening dat deelname hieraan verplicht zou moeten worden om te zorgen voor een zo efficiënt mogelijke aanpak? Punt twee: geldt dit systeem ook voor terugkerende jihadstrijders? Kunnen we ook mensen die terugkeren vanuit Syrië en Irak in de gaten houden via een Europees register waaraan alle landen deelnemen?

Ten slotte wil ik graag mijn collega Frank Engel bijvallen: we moeten ISIS bestrijden in Syrië en Irak, maar we moeten ook goed letten op de gronden waarop jongeren radicaliseren in onze eigen lidstaten en de manieren waarop organisaties de ruimte krijgen om reizen naar Syrië en Irak te faciliteren en te organiseren vanuit onze eigen Europese landen. Op deze punten moeten de lidstaten ook hun verantwoordelijkheid nemen en belangrijke stappen zetten.

  Deirdre Clune (PPE). - Mr President, the compilation of accurate statistics in relation to the numbers of actual foreign fighters is problematic, due to the secretive nature of those travelling and many of the circuitous routes such individuals take in reaching their destinations; but it is happening and there is no doubt about it. We hear various reports of figures, in their thousands or hundreds, I do not know, but certainly it is happening. The phenomenon of individuals travelling from all over Europe to the fighting has affected the majority of European states and it is one to which Ireland, my own country, gave priority during their recent Presidency of the Union in 2013. In that context, Ireland was successful in gaining the agreement of Member States to carry out a review of the strategy for counteracting radicalisation and recruitment to terrorism.

A primary point of focus in this review was the foreign fighter issue, and a number of initiatives have been developed to combat this phenomenon, including: community relations, which I believe are very important; media campaigns; enhanced tracking of movements; engagement with third countries, notably Turkey; and engagement with internet service providers to curb radical on-line content.

It is widely accepted that this problem cannot be resolved by security-related measures alone and that a key issue in addressing it is a programme of proactive engagement with the communities affected. Meaningful engagement with these communities is an essential part of the process, in order to avoid any sense of profiling of stigmatisation of sectors of the population. The protection of fundamental rights and recognition from the outset that the majority of people wish to go about their daily lives in peace and to play a productive part in society is enshrined within this engagement.

The growth of extremism which we are now witnessing across the reign is a cause of considerable concern, which I know is shared by all of us in this room. The blood lust and inhumanity which ISIS is displaying in Syria and Iraq has shocked and appalled all civilised people. The destruction and displacement of the ancient Christian communities of northern Iraq has been harrowing to witness. All of this taken together harks back to a mentality and a culture which we thought had long been consigned to history. It is a frightening new reality for the world and one which we must address head on.

  Емил Радев (PPE). - За съжаление в редиците на Ислямска държава има стотици европейци, които отхвърлят европейските ценности и припознават други, екстремистки ценности и норми. За мен това е доказателство, че терористичната организация се е превърнала в идея, едва ли не в мираж. Въпросът е как да развенчаем този мираж. Единият начин е чрез принудителни мерки, за които се говори напоследък, като например ограничаване правото на пътуване на хора, заподозрени в тероризъм. Или чрез ускореното приемане на Директивата за данни на пътници, както призова Съветът. Тези мерки обаче трябва да са съобразени с основните човешки права и защита на личните данни и трябва да има достатъчно гаранции, че няма да бъдат неправомерно използвани.

Гореописаните предложения, обаче, са краткосрочни решения на един много по-дълбок проблем – редица европейци се чувстват изключени от европейското общество и търсят друга възможност за личностна реализация, било то и чрез тероризъм. Искрено вярвам, че в едно толерантно и приобщаващо общество броят на хората, които искат да се присъединят към терористични организации, е значително по-малък. Вярвам също, че насилието може да бъде предотвратено с повече уважение към различните култури.

Броят европейци в редиците на Ислямска държава за мен е доказателство, че за съжаление Европа има да извърви още път преди европейските ценности, заложени в основните договори, да бъдат изцяло приети. Дотогава обаче принудителните мерки могат да се окажат единственият начин за гарантиране европейската сигурност.

  Arnaud Danjean (PPE). - Monsieur le Président, en matière d'antiterrorisme, il y a trois écueils de base à éviter. Le premier est l'ignorance – et j'ai entendu beaucoup d'approximations ce soir dans ce débat –, le deuxième est la naïveté – j'ai également entendu beaucoup de propos très naïfs –, et le troisième est la stigmatisation généralisée –dont j'ai entendu aussi certains exemples.

Le phénomène des combattants européens dans les mouvements djihadistes a toujours existé. Il n'est pas nouveau en soi mais il est nouveau de par son ampleur et les moyens qu'il utilise, c'est-à-dire les technologies de communication de masse qui servent à convertir et à radicaliser des éléments fragiles de notre société.

Face à cette menace extrême, terroriste par nature, qui joue sur l'émotivité et le spectaculaire, chaque échelon institutionnel doit prendre ses responsabilités.

Ce n'est pas forcément au niveau collectif de l'Union européenne que se situent les meilleures solutions, il faut bien en être conscient. Les conclusions de juin 2013 sont de bonnes conclusions qui, je crois, contiennent un diagnostic assez juste des mesures qui peuvent et doivent être prises. Toutefois, la mise en œuvre principale de ces mesures incombe aux États membres parce que les piliers en matière de sécurité intérieure – c'est-à-dire le renseignement, la police et la justice –, ce sont les États membres.

Je ne crois pas du tout à l'efficacité d'une mutualisation européenne bureaucratique, hâtive et mal adaptée. L'efficacité passe par une meilleure coopération des justices, des services de renseignement, des polices et non par la mise en place d'une nouvelle superstructure européenne bureaucratique.

À cet égard, je m'interroge, comme de nombreux spécialistes, sur l'utilité de conférer à Europol un rôle pilote dans cette coordination. Je ne crois pas que ce soit la vocation d'Europol et je crois que les services de renseignement nationaux sont bien mieux équipés pour cela.

Un dernier mot sur la responsabilité du Parlement européen. Le Parlement doit être plus actif et plus expert sur ces questions et ne pas se perdre dans des débats théologiques complètement vagues, fumeux et naïfs. Je crois que nous devrions prendre nos responsabilités en adoptant rapidement le PNR parce que c'est un des outils dont nous disposons pour renforcer efficacement la lutte antiterroriste.

(L'orateur accepte de répondre à une question "carton bleu" (article 162, paragraphe 8, du règlement))

  Edouard Ferrand (NI), question "carton bleu". – Monsieur Danjean, nous nous connaissons un petit peu. Vous parlez de naïveté, parce que vous voyez plutôt les conséquences, tandis que moi, je vois les causes. Les causes se trouvent dans une vraie naïveté de l'Union européenne et aussi, malheureusement, du gouvernement que vous avez soutenu en France.

Ma question est très simple. Croyez-vous qu'il était intelligent, utile et audacieux de s'en prendre à tous ces pays du Maghreb: la Tunisie, la Libye, l'Égypte et, au Proche-Orient, l'Iraq et la Syrie? En déstabilisant ces gouvernements, vous avez créé les causes de votre problème actuel. Malheureusement, je crois qu'il est trop tard et que vous auriez dû réfléchir avant. Alors, allez-vous continuer à soutenir cette politique américaine qui consiste aujourd'hui à éradiquer justement tous ces États qui maintenaient la stabilité au Proche-Orient?

  Arnaud Danjean (PPE), réponse "carton bleu". – Monsieur Ferrand, votre question est hors sujet parce que le débat sur le conflit en Syrie, sur les conflits armés en Iraq, en Syrie et ailleurs, a eu lieu tout à l'heure, mais vous n'étiez pas présent.

En ce moment, nous parlons justement des aspects qu'il faut traiter et des mesures qu'il convient de prendre aujourd'hui. J'ai été très concret dans mon intervention. Or, vous nous faites des dégagements fumeux sur la politique américaine. Ce n'est pas le problème.

Comme je l'ai rappelé dans mon intervention, Monsieur Ferrand, si vous aviez bien écouté, le problème des djihadistes européens existait bien avant la Libye, bien avant la Syrie et bien avant l'Iraq. Cela n'est pas la cause fondamentale de tous les problèmes.

Si vous souhaitez connaître mon avis sur la Libye et sur la déstabilisation des régimes arabes, sachez que je ne souscris pas à toutes les actions qui ont été menées. Je ne souscris pas à tout cela. Je pense qu'un certain nombre de régimes ont été déstabilisés alors qu'ils n'auraient pas dû l'être. Pour autant, faire de ces phénomènes l'unique cause...

(Le Président retire la parole à l'orateur)

Procedura catch-the-eye

  Tonino Picula (S&D). - Gospodine predsjedniče, statistike ukazuju doista na alarmantni rast broja boraca porijeklom iz Europske unije koji se bore na bojištima Bliskog istoka. Govorimo o tisućama državljana Europske unije, navodno čak desetini snaga Islamske države. Većina europskih boraca su pripadnici prve ili druge generacije imigranata iz Afrike ili Azije. To obnavlja dileme o uspješnosti politike integracije, ali njihov neuspjeh nikako nije opravdanje za počinjene zločine.

Problem predstavlja odlazak, ali i naravno jednaku opasnost otvara i njihov povratak s bojišta. Želim spomenuti i europske borce koji su često izostavljeni iz statistika. Riječ je o građanima zemalja aspirantica na članstvo u Europskoj uniji i koje graniče s Europskom unijom. To svakako predstavlja prijetnju sigurnosti tih zemalja ili cijele Unije.

Kratkoročno, Unija svakako treba koordinirati nacionalne odgovore na ove sigurnosne prijetnje. Dugoročno, potrebna je razvojna strategija za Bliski istok i sjevernu Afriku. Sama vojna pobjeda nad diktatorima i teroristima nikada nije dovoljna, jer je lakše ukloniti vrh režima ili terorističke organizacije, nego političke, ekonomske i socijalne okolnosti u kojima su se održavali.

  Marijana Petir (PPE). - Gospodine predsjedniče, prema navodima jedne studije londonskog sveučilišta, trenutačno je oko 3 000 stranaca iz zapadnih država aktivno u skupini ISIS. Vojno značenje boraca sa zapada u Siriji i Iraku nije toliko presudno, jer ISIS ukupno raspolaže sa više od 10 000 boraca. No, njihov odlazak nas treba brinuti, kao i njihov povratak na europsko tlo i potencijalne terorističke aktivnosti koje su oni u stanju provesti.

Ovdje su spomenute mnogobrojne mjere koje bi trebali poduzeti, ali ih do danas nažalost nismo poduzeli. Prvenstveno ono što je nužno učiniti po mom mišljenju jest prestati trgovati sa šeicima koji financiraju ISIS i tako im omogućuju dotok novca za sve njihove aktivnosti. No, ja bih željela upozoriti da se 10 godina događaju zločini nad kršćanima u Iraku i Siriji, a Ujedinjeni narodi i Europska unija to samo konstatiraju i ne čine ništa.

Dok mi raspravljamo ovdje, kršćanska djeca u Iraku i Siriji plaču i traže pravo na djetinjstvo. Dok mi raspravljamo ovdje, kršćanskim se majkama djeca otimaju iz naručja. Dok mi raspravljamo ovdje pravimo se kao da se ne radi o stvarnim ljudima, kao da se radi o nekom drugom, a ustvari dok smo raspravljali dogodilo se nama i smatram da je vrijeme da s riječi pređemo na djela.

  Michela Giuffrida (S&D). - Signor Presidente, onorevoli colleghi, l'offensiva di ISIS è la più terribile sfida all'Occidente, ai suoi principi, ai suoi valori, a tutto ciò che di positivo ha contribuito a realizzare l'Unione europea. Poco è stato fatto comunque finora in termini concreti, se non agire sul fronte dell'emergenza e sull'onda emotiva ed emozionale rappresentata dalle orribili sentenze di morte eseguite platealmente, usando i mezzi di comunicazione.

Guardiamo alla realtà con un'analisi lucida, si faccia fronte comune, convinto e compatto, per raccogliere la sfida alla nostra sicurezza. Si metta a punto soprattutto una strategia europea che stronchi il fenomeno del crescente arruolamento degli jihadisti europei preoccupante proprio perché sono tra noi e sono pronti a combatterci dal nostro interno, ma soprattutto smettiamo, smettiamo di sovrapporre questa problematica a quella dolorosissima dell'immigrazione, strumentalizzando e colpevolmente generalizzando una tragedia e decine di migliaia di morti, che così noi uccidiamo due volte.

  Doru-Claudian Frunzulică (S&D). - Mr President, we can all see what is going on in northern Syria, especially in the town of Kobane, in eastern Syria, as well as in the north-west of Iraq, where the largest Iraqi governorate, al-Anbar, is under the total control of ISIS. How does ISIS make advances despite the air strikes? We see that, each and every day, European Union countries are counting their European citizens leaving Europe to join ISIS. A terrorist organisation that should not have to be named a state; a terrorist organisation which poses a huge threat to the Middle East’s security and stability, to Syria, Iraq and now Lebanon’s territorial integrity and, last but not least, to the security of the whole of the European Union.

European countries should take immediate new tough measures to check and control the threatening situation created by European citizens travelling to the areas of conflict in the Middle East to join ISIS and then coming back to Europe with military training, well-trained in terrorist tactics and actions. Cooperation with Turkey has to be increased as well, in order to strengthen its control of the borders with Iraq and Syria, to prevent and stop potential ISIS fighters joining the areas of conflict and to identify European ISIS fighters trying to return to Europe.

We need to see increased cooperation between the Schengen states and Romania and Bulgaria, candidate countries to the Schengen Agreement, in order to take immediate, specific measures to more closely identify and monitor people travelling to Turkey through south-eastern European countries and, of course, suspect people coming back to the European area.

  Eduard Kukan (PPE). - Mr President, on the issue of ISIS foreign fighters, I would like to point to the situation in our close neighbourhood, the Western Balkans. Between 200 and 600 fighters from Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo have travelled to Syria since 2012. It is important to say that the home nations of these fighters are taking this issue seriously. Bosnia has passed a law that throws convicted Islamist recruiters into prison for up to ten years. Kosovo has arrested 55 Islamists and Serbia has charged five jihadists. All these countries are considering strengthening their entire terrorism law. We Member States should speak with one voice on this issue and also closely cooperate with our neighbours. We could work more effectively and get better results.

  Ангел Джамбазки (ECR). - Безспорно наличието на хиляди бойци с европейски паспорти в Сирия днес е огромен проблем. Той е проблем преди всичко на западните общества. В основата на този проблем е прекалено дългото търпение, прекалената търпимост, която през годините допускаше хора с радикални възгледи безпрепятствено да извършват проповеди в самото сърце на Европа; която допускаше хора, които не споделят нашите ценности, да ни налагат своите ценности. Време е и е редно като европейски общества, като национални правителства, като Европарламент и като Комисия, да преосмислим тази своя позиция, да изберем дали ще пазим своите граници и своите граждани или ще оставим тези хора да правят с държавите ни каквото си искат. Това, което трябва да се знае, е, че тези хора не се организират сами. Това, което трябва да се знае, е, че Република Турция организира нелегалните бойци в посока към Сирия и обратно – в посока към Европа. Това поведение на Република Турция е изключително вредно и опасно на първо място за България, оттам и за целия Европейски съюз и ние трябва да помислим дали тази държава заслужва да бъде кандидат-член и член на Европейския съюз.

(Fine della procedura catch-the-eye)

  Cecilia Malmström, Member of the Commission. - Mr President, we should all admit that we are facing a very complex problem and that there are no easy answers or solutions here. It is also, as has been said, not a new phenomenon.

We have all seen the horrors that are committed in Syria and Iraq by ISIS and other groups. Decapitation, rape and murder of innocent civilians: children, women, men, journalists, health workers. This is terrorism and barbarism. It is clear that it has nothing to do with Islam, and a huge majority of Muslims all over the world are condemning it.

But we do have Europeans travelling to fight with these groups and this is a problem. They commit terrible acts there and they can do us a lot of harm when and if they come home – and by the way there are no indications whatsoever that they come to Europe as asylum seekers. This is false.

We need to create police cooperation, intelligence sharing and in fact we are setting up different platforms where they can share information. From what I hear this is going well, especially amongst the most concerned eight or nine states, but more and more countries in the European Union are concerned about this right now.

It would be helpful to have a PNR and I think a system could be set up that is robust when it comes to data protection but still serves its purpose. We can use SIS and border control measures much more efficiently. They allow for a lot of things to be done today, and Member States should make full use of them.

We also need to cooperate more on the preventive side. Local communities, religious leaders, teachers, civil society can play a very important role at local level to identify young people, young men – and women: increasingly there are also young girls travelling to fight – to identify them and prevent them from going when it is possible. We have more than 1 000 experts from all over Europe connected to the RAN network, the Radicalisation Awareness Network, and they can help Member States with advice, setting up local action plans, setting up exit programmes, and advising on how to put up centres where worried families can call: Where do I call if I am worried that my son or my brother is planning to go away? There have to be structures from this and we can share a lot of information and good practices here.

Of course, integration and social exclusion need to be given further attention here so we can combat exclusion and ensure that European citizens do not feel the need to leave. We also need, of course, to respect human rights and avoid stigmatisation of certain groups.

So we need to act on several fronts, but it would be a severe mistake not to admit that this is a very serious phenomenon.

  Benedetto Della Vedova, Presidente in carica del Consiglio. - Signor Presidente, onorevoli deputati, pochissime considerazioni conclusive. Innanzitutto per dire al Parlamento che il Consiglio conta sul sostegno del Parlamento nel lavoro volto a evitare che giovani in partenza dall'Europa si uniscano ai gruppi terroristici in Siria e in Iraq, per rassicurarci di poter identificare i combattenti stranieri che intendono attaccare le nostre società e per consegnare alla giustizia chi ha infranto le nostre leggi. Agiamo in tal senso ma allo stesso tempo garantiamo e difendiamo i nostri valori comuni e i diritti fondamentali, la libertà di circolazione e la libertà di espressione che ci sono cari. Stiamo compiendo progressi in diversi settori e speriamo di poter dire presto altrettanto – torno su un punto che avevo sollevato nell'intervento introduttivo – di poter dire altrettanto a proposito dei progressi del fascicolo PNR dell'Unione europea con il sostegno del Parlamento.

  Presidente. - La discussione è chiusa.